n00b question re: jibs

Take pity on me for any seemingly obvious lack of knowledge/experience... but...

If you need more power to get onto the foils but after that the excess drag is counter-productive, why cant the teams use an oversized jib on a system that can then be furled to reduce drag as they foil?  Is there a rule against furling jibs?  I can see it's a mess trying to sort in a mainsail but was wondering if it'd be an option?  Or does the furling create excessive drag in it's own right?

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
10,505
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Take pity on me for any seemingly obvious lack of knowledge/experience... but...

If you need more power to get onto the foils but after that the excess drag is counter-productive, why cant the teams use an oversized jib on a system that can then be furled to reduce drag as they foil?  Is there a rule against furling jibs?  I can see it's a mess trying to sort in a mainsail but was wondering if it'd be an option?  Or does the furling create excessive drag in it's own right?


 

Woolfy

Anarchist
750
251
Waiheke Island
They'd struggle to get the shape they want with a furling jib, that's why you don't see furlers used on fully crewed race boats. Having said that furling systems are a lot better than they used to be, but still nothing like good enough for this level.

 

alphafb552

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Fryslan boppe!
This was a question I had been wondering about for a time as well. I think it was in the Douglas Schickler interview by Mozzy Sails that I heard the explanation:

Yes a Code 0 can help you onto the foils, but literally the moment you start accelerating, the drag and angle penalty becomes excessive. So say both boats are down: boat one unfurls the C0 and takes off, but a few seconds later boat 2 manages to get on the foils with the regular jib - only one outcome: the first boat with the Code 0 will be toast

So the general consensus appears to be that it is not worth the risk

Having said that, ETNZ have been messing around with one in the last week or so...

Either they know something no one else does, or they are desperate to improve their light air performance!

 
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jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,166
1,293
Wellington
Take pity on me for any seemingly obvious lack of knowledge/experience... but...

If you need more power to get onto the foils but after that the excess drag is counter-productive, why cant the teams use an oversized jib on a system that can then be furled to reduce drag as they foil?  Is there a rule against furling jibs?  I can see it's a mess trying to sort in a mainsail but was wondering if it'd be an option?  Or does the furling create excessive drag in it's own right?
A furled sail will cause a drag which you need to be SUPER sure will be offset against some advantage you gain.

This means you need to be sure the wind conditions are going to change mid-race necessitating its use.

 

Varan

Super Anarchist
6,637
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This was a question I had been wondering about for a time as well. I think it was in the Douglas Schickler interview by Mozzy Sails that I heard the explanation:

Yes a Code 0 can help you onto the foils, but literally the moment you start accelerating, the drag and angle penalty becomes excessive. So say both boats are down: boat one unfurls the C0 and takes off, but a few seconds later boat 2 manages to get on the foils with the regular jib - only one outcome: the first boat with the Code 0 will be toast

So the general consensus appears to be that it is not worth the risk

Having said that, ETNZ have been messing around with one in the last week or so...

Either they know something no one else does, or they are desperate to improve their light air performance!
Or a diversionary tactic to tempt the competition to piss away time and money looking at something they will never use.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,166
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Wellington
Cheers all, was the Mozzy clip that got me wondering as well.

Seems no free lunch for big jib furling to a little one
In theory they can drop it to the deck, but you have to wonder about the logistics of doing this on a boat doing 50 knots in a race that lasts little more than 20 minutes.

With regards to the code zero they have been testing, my thinking is that they MIGHT start with it stowed on the deck with some kind of mechanism that will release it ready for hoisting.

You would assume that a code zero, once hoisted, would not need to be re-furled and stowed so this might make sense.

 
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snaerk

Super Anarchist
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80
High latitudes
Could be wrong but I thought they could move forward for sail changes and repairs.
My bad. Thanks.

28.8 Crew shall remain entirely aft of a plane 9.0 m forward of TRP except briefly to cross the boat, handle sails during a drop or a hoist, or resolve unforeseen issues.

28.9 Any crew that go forward of a plane 11.0 m forward of TRP may only do so as permitted by Rule 28.8, and must be tethered to the hull by a harness and safety line that complies with ISO 12401, the safety line being no longer than 2 m.

 

southseasbill

Super Anarchist
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Burling indicated the sail they tested was for the scenario they faced against INEOS in the Christmas cup. You are on the final downwind leg and there is not enough wind to get on the foils. Hoist that sail and get to the finish before the clock runs out.

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,166
1,293
Wellington
My bad. Thanks.

28.8 Crew shall remain entirely aft of a plane 9.0 m forward of TRP except briefly to cross the boat, handle sails during a drop or a hoist, or resolve unforeseen issues.

28.9 Any crew that go forward of a plane 11.0 m forward of TRP may only do so as permitted by Rule 28.8, and must be tethered to the hull by a harness and safety line that complies with ISO 12401, the safety line being no longer than 2 m.
All good, we all get shit wrong. Me more than most perhaps.

 
Burling indicated the sail they tested was for the scenario they faced against INEOS in the Christmas cup. You are on the final downwind leg and there is not enough wind to get on the foils. Hoist that sail and get to the finish before the clock runs out.
I'm thinking that neither Ineos nor TNZ enjoyed that race v much.

 




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