NATO - stop being so fucking timid!!!!

Cal20sailor

Super Anarchist
13,167
3,545
Detroit
It will be the last death rattle of the Cold War. And from then on, Russia will forget about having to divert resources away from their attentions in the Economic War. Russia will finally be free to compete with Germany using the energy and manufacturing at their disposal, and then drawing immigration from Africa, especially immigrants trained by Chinese industry. Within our lifetime, we will see Russia surpass Italy, France and Britain as a serious economic contender to Germany.

We will continue to fund NATO far more than we rationally need, and the EU and Russia will benefit from the USA's reduced ability to compete. We will remain oblivious to our waning economic power and continue to hand over markets to China.
Where'd you get that one?  Trying to get that first hit, huh?

 

Mid

Blues Rule
Within our lifetime, we will see Russia surpass Italy, France and Britain as a serious economic contender to Germany.
yes-virginia-low-res-150x150.jpg


 
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mikewof

mikewof
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Look at Russia's defense spending per GDP. It's higher than the USA, only behind Israel and Saudi Arabia. What happens when they retain their profitable defense exports, but bet rid of the money vacuums like tanks and the kind of bullshit being repurposed in the Ukraine? Why even fuck with any of that when they have the largest nuclear stockpile, which costs pennies on the dollar to maintain compared to conventional weapons?

Russia's emerging weapons is their resources, their border and the opportunity to draw immigration from across Eastern Europe. They may be right shit at fighting a war on a budget, but their ability to control energy and resource markets is clear and established. Those companies who pulled out of Russia, how much were they able to recapitalize? So what happened to those assets that remained? Nationalized? Not in Russia. Privatized? Likely. Whether we like it or not, we live in the era of robber-barons again, and Putin and his pals make Bezos and Musk look like they're playing with Easy-Bake Ovens while Russia plays with flamethrowers.

 
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mikewof

mikewof
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does IT figure in the nuclear equation ?

hate to be the one Mike , but you are a dinosaur
No. IT is a negative with nuclear stockpiles, due to the sensitivity of doped semiconductors. Weaponized field effect tubes FTW when it comes to nukes.

The funny thing is that your eggs are getting chewed to shit by a bunch of tiny shrews and you remain unthreatened due to your lack of training to recognize that existential threats are often the things too small to measure. You obviously don't know, but in the area of field effect and vacuum physics, the entire world is so far behind Russian physicists that there is barely a body of study on the subject that isn't Russian or Soviet in origin. Try to find an American, Asian or European paper on the subject that doesn't reference the extensive body of Russian work ... best of luck on that.

You probably think IT is most important because your experience in manufacturing extends no further than the sector that services the manufacturing sector. Russia can and does buy this stuff from China and India, same as us!

 
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BeSafe

Super Anarchist
8,108
1,352
 Russia will finally be free to compete with Germany using the energy and manufacturing at their disposal, and then drawing immigration from Africa, especially immigrants trained by Chinese industry. Within our lifetime, we will see Russia surpass Italy, France and Britain as a serious economic contender to Germany.
Yea, I don't think that's going to happen.  The Russian demographic crunch is awful and they're facing outward migration pressures, not immigration pressures.

Russia has what it always has - vast natural resources with few people to be impacted by extraction.  Like the Saudis, they'll never be broke - not within our lifespan.

To me, that's why we won't send weapons of conquest but we will send weapons of attrition.  Its obvious.  We want the Russians to bleed the resource they don't really have - young Russian males.  The babushkas aren't getting more.  They are going to pay for Putin's folly with their sons and grandsons every day this goes on.  This isn't about smart bombs destroying buildings.  This isn't a war about resources or taking over assets.  This is a war of blood.  The PURPOSE is to maximize casualties, within the scope of what cameras allow in today's day and age.

Russia can make more tanks.  They have a hard time making more Russians.

 
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Expatriated

Anarchist
619
120
I cannot get to grips with the German refusal to supply Marder fighting vehicles to Ukraine. The German government delayed and obstructed supplying arms even after the Russian build up in Byelorussia and now seems to prefer dismantling vehicles rather than supplying the Ukrainians. 

Absolutely unbelievable.

We need to send the Ukrainians every plane, bomb and missile that they can use.

We need to provide real-time targeting data.

We need to do this now.

 

phillysailor

Super Anarchist
8,857
3,641
Russia is destroying its offensive capability by throwing boys into a meat grinder. Putin and his generals are slowly making their incompetence clear.

I fail to see why America should I interfere, other than for humanitarian reasons.

And let’s be clear, we would only change WHO bleeds and dies, and who would suffer the consequences in the aftermath.

If we take on this bloodbath, then we own the resultant bloodbath.

At this point, Putin owns it. Why should we take it from him UNLESS we are willing to go all the way to Moscow and force regime change.

Ukraine is not an existential American problem like it is for Russia & Putin.

 
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kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
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Kent Island!
Russia is destroying its offensive capability by throwing boys into a meat grinder. Putin and his generals are slowly making their incompetence clear.

I fail to see why America should I interfere, other than for humanitarian reasons.

And let’s be clear, we would only change WHO bleeds and dies, and who would suffer the consequences in the aftermath.

If we take on this bloodbath, then we own the resultant bloodbath.

At this point, Putin owns it. Why should we take it from him UNLESS we are willing to go all the way to Moscow and force regime change.

Ukraine is not an existential American problem like it is for Russia & Putin.
That approach has been tried before with results being mixed at best.

 

AJ Oliver

Super Anarchist
12,894
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Sandusky Sailing Club
Look at Russia's defense spending per GDP. It's higher than the USA, only behind Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Wrong, actual US security spending is on the order of $ 1.2 trillion per year. 

Fer Jebus' sake, even the trillions spent of the Forever Wars was "off budget".  

Don't fall for those ,militarist accounting tricks !! 

 

AJ Oliver

Super Anarchist
12,894
1,806
Sandusky Sailing Club
US paid a price as did the elected officials. I'll believe that when I see Dubya and his gang of torturers in orange jump suits before the docket at the Hague. 

Should you be unable to discern the difference then any further discourse is wasted.  Have it your way - but you are still wrong. 

 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
29,995
4,545
New Oak City
Russia is destroying its offensive capability by throwing boys into a meat grinder. Putin and his generals are slowly making their incompetence clear.

I fail to see why America should I interfere, other than for humanitarian reasons.

And let’s be clear, we would only change WHO bleeds and dies, and who would suffer the consequences in the aftermath.

If we take on this bloodbath, then we own the resultant bloodbath.

At this point, Putin owns it. Why should we take it from him UNLESS we are willing to go all the way to Moscow and force regime change.

Ukraine is not an existential American problem like it is for Russia & Putin.
No, Ukraine is not an existential problem for Russia. In particular, Ukraine was such an existential threat, they gave up their nuclear weapons in 1994.

 
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Rain Man

Super Anarchist
7,372
2,179
Wet coast.
I cannot get to grips with the German refusal to supply Marder fighting vehicles to Ukraine. The German government delayed and obstructed supplying arms even after the Russian build up in Byelorussia and now seems to prefer dismantling vehicles rather than supplying the Ukrainians. 

Absolutely unbelievable.

We need to send the Ukrainians every plane, bomb and missile that they can use.

We need to provide real-time targeting data.

We need to do this now.
Yes.  Germany said that the vehicles were part of its  NATO commitment and therefore they needed NATO agreement to send them, which they have asked for.  Sad to see a finger-pointing exercise at this point.

 

phillysailor

Super Anarchist
8,857
3,641
No, Ukraine is not an existential problem for Russia. In particular, Ukraine was such an existential threat, they gave up their nuclear weapons in 1994.
Putin has determined that he is willing to die upon this hill. He has led his country to the brink of economic devastation and is daily committing and recommitting war crimes that will forever limit Russia’s ability to take part in normal Western diplomatic relations. His army and air forces are suffering severe losses and Russia’s ability to command fear and win allies have been degraded.

Yes, Ukraine is posing an existential threat to both Russia and Putin. From our perspective, Putin poses an existential threat to Russia, but our opinions don’t matter as much as his.

 

Expatriated

Anarchist
619
120
Yes.  Germany said that the vehicles were part of its  NATO commitment and therefore they needed NATO agreement to send them, which they have asked for.  Sad to see a finger-pointing exercise at this point.
The German government blocked old artillery weapons being shipped to Estonia to Ukraine in January and have dragged their feet on sanctions.

This isn't finger pointing - the German government has been avoiding action on the Ukraine for a year; they don't want to upset Putin.

 

mikewof

mikewof
45,868
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Wrong, actual US security spending is on the order of $ 1.2 trillion per year. 

Fer Jebus' sake, even the trillions spent of the Forever Wars was "off budget".  

Don't fall for those ,militarist accounting tricks !! 
We do spend a lot, too much on defense, not enough on infrastructure. Beltway bandits drink champagne while Americans live in cardboard boxes.

And I do agree with the accounting tricks. But as a portion of GDP, Russia's spending is nuts, especially compared with the NATO countries who are able to piggyback their costs onto the treaty. As Eisenhower said, that is lost wealth, lost opportunity. The other side of this war may lead to something we wouldn't have expected for Europe.

 

mikewof

mikewof
45,868
1,246
The German government blocked old artillery weapons being shipped to Estonia to Ukraine in January and have dragged their feet on sanctions.

This isn't finger pointing - the German government has been avoiding action on the Ukraine for a year; they don't want to upset Putin.
It might be for the best. Germany is EU's strongest economy, if Russian energy exports are halted, they will see a recession for which they are unprepared and will ripple through the EU. Escalation in the war from Germany will come with two larger casualties.

 

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