NATO - stop being so fucking timid!!!!

[mikewof]

Putin has determined that he is willing to die upon this hill. He has led his country to the brink of economic devastation and is daily committing and recommitting war crimes that will forever limit Russia’s ability to take part in normal Western diplomatic relations. His army and air forces are suffering severe losses and Russia’s ability to command fear and win allies have been degraded.

Yes, Ukraine is posing an existential threat to both Russia and Putin. From our perspective, Putin poses an existential threat to Russia, but our opinions don’t matter as much as his.

Sure, how else should any party go into a possible treaty? Zelenskyy has wisely taken the same position. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60987350

 

[Zonker]

  10 hours ago, mikewof said:
Within our lifetime, we will see Russia surpass Italy, France and Britain as a serious economic contender to Germany.

I have mikewof turned off but it was his quite quote, not Cal20. 

Saving this little gem for posterity. Maybe they will surpass Italy, but that will because Italy is sometimes so messed up politically, not because of Russian greatness.

1/3 of Russia's GDP is oil / gas. Turn down that tap and see what happens.

 

[mikewof]

Yea, I don't think that's going to happen.  The Russian demographic crunch is awful and they're facing outward migration pressures, not immigration pressures.

Russia has what it always has - vast natural resources with few people to be impacted by extraction.  Like the Saudis, they'll never be broke - not within our lifespan.

To me, that's why we won't send weapons of conquest but we will send weapons of attrition.  Its obvious.  We want the Russians to bleed the resource they don't really have - young Russian males.  The babushkas aren't getting more.  They are going to pay for Putin's folly with their sons and grandsons every day this goes on.  This isn't about smart bombs destroying buildings.  This isn't a war about resources or taking over assets.  This is a war of blood.  The PURPOSE is to maximize casualties, within the scope of what cameras allow in today's day and age.

Russia can make more tanks.  They have a hard time making more Russians.

A war of attrition with Russia doesn't benefit the USA. This whole mess with Russia has not taken many American lives, but it takes away our wealth that we need to compete with China. We aren't fighting Russia's war machine, and unlike the EU, we barely rely on their economy. Each day that this mess continues, our economic position against Chinese global expansion gets worse.

 

[mikewof]

I have mikewof turned off but it was his quite quote, not Cal20. 

Saving this little gem for posterity. Maybe they will surpass Italy, but that will because Italy is sometimes so messed up politically, not because of Russian greatness.

1/3 of Russia's GDP is oil / gas. Turn down that tap and see what happens.

View attachment 502486

How do you "turn down that tap"? Replace that oil and gas with what? Broken and offline nuclear reactors? Coproduction? Fucking coal? 

The reality of low-entropy power in Europe is that the "tap can't be turned down." And Russia's five year engagement with OPEC seems to be leading to a marriage ...

And after this war is over and settled, the EU still needs Russian gas to transition their contribution to climate change ... remember the war on climate change? Does that magically disappear when they "turn down the tap"?

And as an aside, it's odd that you have to apologize to your unseen masters to replying to my post. Is peer pressure a new problem for you? Your posts always struck me as you being above that kind of nonsense.

 

[Olsonist]

Russia already had a GDP greater than Italy's, as recently as 2013. So I think that counts as in our lifetime. However, putain kinda fucked that up by invading Crimea in 2014 and it's only going to get much worse for Russia with his invading again. BTW, Russia has 2.4 times the population of Italy.

 

[LeoV]

Ukraine is not an existential American problem like it is for Russia & Putin.

Yep.
But Russia could steer up an existential problem in the US.

You need a disgruntled part of the society. Check, you have that.
You need an outside enemy, just up the gang violence from Mexico to the US. Then support extremist politicians.
Putin used organized crime to power his mafia state, so they probably know how to play the Mexican gangs. Just promise the life of an oligarch if they do their best.
And this i came up within a few moments after I questioned myself; how could Putin be an existential risk to the US.

 

[Raz'r]

It will be the last death rattle of the Cold War. And from then on, Russia will forget about having to divert resources away from their attentions in the Economic War. Russia will finally be free to compete with Germany using the energy and manufacturing at their disposal, and then drawing immigration from Africa, especially immigrants trained by Chinese industry. Within our lifetime, we will see Russia surpass Italy, France and Britain as a serious economic contender to Germany.

We will continue to fund NATO far more than we rationally need, and the EU and Russia will benefit from the USA's reduced ability to compete. We will remain oblivious to our waning economic power and continue to hand over markets to China.

hahahahaha

Good one Comrade. Good one!

 

[Raz'r]

Look at Russia's defense spending per GDP. It's higher than the USA, only behind Israel and Saudi Arabia. What happens when they retain their profitable defense exports, but bet rid of the money vacuums like tanks and the kind of bullshit being repurposed in the Ukraine? Why even fuck with any of that when they have the largest nuclear stockpile, which costs pennies on the dollar to maintain compared to conventional weapons?

Russia's emerging weapons is their resources, their border and the opportunity to draw immigration from across Eastern Europe. They may be right shit at fighting a war on a budget, but their ability to control energy and resource markets is clear and established. Those companies who pulled out of Russia, how much were they able to recapitalize? So what happened to those assets that remained? Nationalized? Not in Russia. Privatized? Likely. Whether we like it or not, we live in the era of robber-barons again, and Putin and his pals make Bezos and Musk look like they're playing with Easy-Bake Ovens while Russia plays with flamethrowers.

Immigration from across Europe? Yep, you bet, folks are dying to move to Russia...

 

[d'ranger]

The population of Russia has been declining for many years, the current special operation isn't helping any.  No one has done a better job of promoting NATO than Putin.

 

[AJ Oliver]

hahahahaha  Good one Comrade. Good one!

I also think Mikey is wrong here, but . . .  

do you grasp that you make yourself stupid by immediately 

launching personal attacks against posters with 

whom you disagree, or you do not understand. 

You do it constantly. 

 

[phillysailor]

Yep.
But Russia could steer up an existential problem in the US.

You need a disgruntled part of the society. Check, you have that.
You need an outside enemy, just up the gang violence from Mexico to the US. Then support extremist politicians.
Putin used organized crime to power his mafia state, so they probably know how to play the Mexican gangs. Just promise the life of an oligarch if they do their best.
And this i came up within a few moments after I questioned myself; how could Putin be an existential risk to the US.

Russia has been trying to stir up trouble in the US & the west for decades, most recently in Canada by amplifying the “Truckers revolt”.

That effort fizzled, then failed miserably in the second, US iteration largely because it odovetailed with the invasion of Ukraine.

The right has seemed really off-message ever since. The usual amplification via RT and Russobots is no longer providing synergy of efforts, and Trump’s failure to remain relevant is getting funny.

Putin and Trump have both passed their sell-by date, and both threaten the US and democracy less every day.

 

[mikewof]

Immigration from across Europe? Yep, you bet, folks are dying to move to Russia...

Eastern Europe. You left out "Eastern."

People move to where there are jobs.

 

[mikewof]

hahahahaha

Good one Comrade. Good one!

Yeah, it's always "amusing" when poorly-educated people like you are able to bait with McCarthyesque taunts while ignoring the actions of an actual Communist Government ...

China has expanded offshore resource extraction in West Africa Eastern Europe and South America, while we stand around with our hands in pockets. As much as you want to deny with your McCarthyism, we do hand our markets to China, gift-wrapped and with a bow on top.

 

[Ishmael]

Russia has been trying to stir up trouble in the US & the west for decades, most recently in Canada by amplifying the “Truckers revolt”.

That effort fizzled, then failed miserably in the second, US iteration largely because it odovetailed with the invasion of Ukraine.

The right has seemed really off-message ever since. The usual amplification via RT and Russobots is no longer providing synergy of efforts, and Trump’s failure to remain relevant is getting funny.

Putin and Trump have both passed their sell-by date, and both threaten the US and democracy less every day.

And they could both do a helluva lot of damage on the way out. The main difference is that Trump no longer has nukes.

 

[shaggy]

Trump no longer has nukes.

He might get them back.  How screwed is the perception of America after the orange one fucked it all up.  I think Biden is doing the right thing and letting the euros take the point, not just to keep nukes off the table, but to show that we aren't the bully, but part of the team.  If I was running any of the bigs over there, I would be following the midterms very closely....  

 

[Rain Man]

He might get them back.  How screwed is the perception of America after the orange one fucked it all up.  I think Biden is doing the right thing and letting the euros take the point, not just to keep nukes off the table, but to show that we aren't the bully, but part of the team.  If I was running any of the bigs over there, I would be following the midterms very closely....  

Biden needs to stop calling for Putin to be tried as a war criminal - he needs to leave it to some other leader.  Wish we still had Merkel.  The rest of the world just goes "Huh?  Recognize the ICC then.  And what about Bush?"

 

[d'ranger]

What the US is providing the most of is intel - the AWACS 24/7 - monitoring all the comms the Russians have and giving them to Ukraine real time.  Between the antiquated top down command structure and the pathetic state of their comms the Russians and at a serious disadvantage - there is no initiative taken at the front, everything has to be ordered from the top.  Ukraine is getting supplies, Russia is bleeding from a thousand cuts.

edit: And satellites - all those eyes in the sky are watching every move they make.

 

[Expatriated]

Biden needs to stop calling for Putin to be tried as a war criminal - he needs to leave it to some other leader.  Wish we still had Merkel.  The rest of the world just goes "Huh?  Recognize the ICC then.  And what about Bush?"

I'm glad Merkel has gone. I think her approach to Russia was an enabler to Putin. The German response to the Crimean invasion and Putin's disposal of opponents in the UK using Polonium and Novichok was completely craven. Don't get me started on German defense spending.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Is it still 2003?

According to AJ and Random it is.

 

[Mike in Seattle]

, so, 

?Why?  do y'all continue to let them lead you down rabbit holes ?

random throws gasoline

AJ is still only Bait.