NATO - stop being so fucking timid!!!!

Blue Crab

benthivore
16,974
2,990
Outer Banks
, so, 

?Why?  do y'all continue to let them lead you down rabbit holes ?

random throws gasoline

AJ is still only Bait.
Random is a real player just negative as a pissed off rattlesnake.

I can't seem to get past AJ's utter lack of clues. Poland has more vowels ffs.

Why is he still here is a puzzle. He must enjoy the abuse.

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,865
Fair.  But I think some mobile MLRS or similar would be more than enough to harrass the Russian Heavy Arty fire bases.  We know, and therefore the Ukes know, where those all are.  Wouldn't be that hard to do some shoot and scoot tactics.  Keep their heads down fo shizzle.  
The Switchblade UAVs seem perfect for that. A steady, sustainable diet of such. 

 

Ed Lada

Super Anarchist
20,016
5,589
Poland
Ward Carroll is back with another excellent video with Justin Bronk who is quite informed about the Russian military.





And while we're on the subject, I want to make a few comments about Jeff (Burning Man).  Some folks here believe Jeff is some kind of expert because he flew an F15 in the Air Force.  While I don't dispute Jeff's pilot experience in a modern, high performance, military aircraft, I do dispute his expertise in other areas of the discussion here.  I don't think Jeff has a lot of experience at the strategic level.  It would be like if we had a guy here that commanded and infantry company, and went no higher, and then opined on matters of the strategic planning and goals of a war.  Tactical knowledge is fine as far as it goes, but it's hardly the big picture.  From what Jeff writes, I doubt he aver attended the Air Command and Staff college which is where mid level Air Force officers go to get graduate level training to prepare them for higher level staff positions, learning about joint operations and gaining some insight into the strategic level rather than the tactical.  

I don't think Jeff retired from the Air Force, although I could be wrong.  I also don't think he ever held any command positions, as a pilot or otherwise.  Apparently he went from flying the F15 to flying drones which doesn't indicate a high level of confidence to groom an officer for higher level positions.  

Watch the video above which combines a detailed explanation of the tactical level of the Russian air operations, but also goes into some detail of the strategic view and why the US and NATO are making the decisions that they've been making.  

I am not slamming Jeff.  I am just suggesting that in his insistence that the US and NATO aren't doing enough, or doing things properly isn't very valuable.  What Jeff is writing here is just the uniformed view of a former pilot that obviously doesn't have much experience beyond the tactical level, and is in my opinion quite myopic.  Just because you drive an airplane in combat doesn't mean that you know everything about operations, and particularly the big picture intricacies at strategic level.  It's easy to say they should do this and that, however fighting a war isn't just about moving pieces around a model of the battlefield but it also involves political, and many other considerations. 

To me the bottom line is take whatever Jeff says with a healthy amount of skepticism.  Videos like the ones that Ward Carroll produce are far more informative and give a far better insight on how and why events are evolving the way they are in Ukraine, and why the US and NATO are reacting as they are.  

If Jeff wants to correct any mistaken ideas about have about his Air Force experience, I would be happy to hear them.

 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
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11 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Ward Carroll is back with another excellent video with Justin Bronk who is quite informed about the Russian military.


Don't be too rough on Biggles....

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
28,076
5,894
Kent Island!
To me the bottom line is take whatever Jeff says with a healthy amount of skepticism. 
 
That is true of EVERY SINGLE PERSON on here.

No one on PA, including me, has access to the real unfiltered classified intel the various governments are working with, or if they do and want to keep their jobs, they aren't posting it here :rolleyes:

You also have to keep in mind Ukraine may well be running a psy-op where they endlessly complain NATO won't help them when NATO really is doing something on the down-low they don't want Russia to know about ;)

 

Mid

Blues Rule
That is true of EVERY SINGLE PERSON on here.

No one on PA, including me, has access to the real unfiltered classified intel the various governments are working with, or if they do and want to keep their jobs, they aren't posting it here :rolleyes:

You also have to keep in mind Ukraine may well be running a psy-op where they endlessly complain NATO won't help them when NATO really is doing something on the down-low they don't want Russia to know about ;)
ye ye ye , and all those bodies in the streets are props .

 

Mid

Blues Rule
???

I am not getting the connection?
just pissed that the big picture is being allowed to overlook the realities of russian shit ,

pissed also that putin is still bluffing the west with veiled threats of nuclear reprisals .

personally I ain't prepared to live like that , bring it fucker / putin or get off the pot .

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
96,260
13,400
Earth
A bit of a rant here.......  While I do understand the US and NATO's position on not directly intervening in the UKR war for fear of getting into a larger war in Europe - I think NATO is being a big timid pussy for not supplying heavier weapons to the UKR armed forces so they can fight on a bit more level playing field.  Listened to a news report yesterday where NATO is still refusing to send "heavy weapons" such as armor, radar guided SAMs and Fighter jets.  I don't see how that risks a larger war anymore than giving them MANPADS or ATGMs would.  Putin is playing NATO and the US over this issue by threatening nukes.  He's not going to use nukes if we send UKR tanks or SAMs.  He's just not gonna do it for that.

So fucking call his bluff and stop the slaughter of the civilians and the razing of their cities.  The UKR military has proven MORE than capable enough to use those weapons effectively.  Give them the tools they need to fight back!

We didn't threaten Nuke war when the Russians supplied North Vietnam with advanced fighters jets like the MIG-21 or with the most up to date SAM systems that started whacking the fuck out of our airplanes.  In some many cases, Russian "advisors" were flying those jets and directly running those SAMs.  They were directly responsible for a LOT of US lives lost there - so fuck them.  A little bit of payback would not cause me to shed a tear while we help a worthy ally.

/rant
Yeah, the atrocities are mounting and I’m more apt to see more active steps to stop Putin’s slaughter. I still don’t have a problem with getting MiGs to UKR or any other implements Ukrainians request. My hope is that some of these things are being done without our knowledge. All of it should be done quietly. But it should be done. That’s a NATO issue, and NATO has certain limitations thanks to Hungary. But that leads to another conversation…
 

My gripe is with the UN. It’s only useful function that I see is helping refugees. What else is it doing here, and for what cost? It sure seems like a giant bureaucratic circle jerk to me. I question the efficacy of the whole fucking organization. Anytime an autocrat wants war, the UN is exposed as being neutered. 

 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
30,532
4,920
New Oak City
Yeah, the atrocities are mounting and I’m more apt to see more active steps to stop Putin’s slaughter. I still don’t have a problem with getting MiGs to UKR or any other implements Ukrainians request. My hope is that some of these things are being done without our knowledge. All of it should be done quietly. But it should be done. That’s a NATO issue, and NATO has certain limitations thanks to Hungary. But that leads to another conversation…
 

My gripe is with the UN. It’s only useful function that I see is helping refugees. What else is it doing here, and for what cost? It sure seems like a giant bureaucratic circle jerk to me. I question the efficacy of the whole fucking organization. Anytime an autocrat wants war, the UN is exposed as being neutered. 
My girl Hillary might disagree. You could ask Gaddafi about her work on UN Resolution 1973 but you'd find that conversation to be a bit one sided. Getting the UN to do things is difficult; so it helps if to knows what you're doing. Then of course, I understand that Hillary did use email, always a consideration.

 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
20,681
2,511
Yeah, the atrocities are mounting and I’m more apt to see more active steps to stop Putin’s slaughter. I still don’t have a problem with getting MiGs to UKR or any other implements Ukrainians request. My hope is that some of these things are being done without our knowledge. All of it should be done quietly. But it should be done. That’s a NATO issue, and NATO has certain limitations thanks to Hungary. But that leads to another conversation…
 

My gripe is with the UN. It’s only useful function that I see is helping refugees. What else is it doing here, and for what cost? It sure seems like a giant bureaucratic circle jerk to me. I question the efficacy of the whole fucking organization. Anytime an autocrat wants war, the UN is exposed as being neutered. 
Overtly, the UN has no real role to play here.

Votes aren't binding, no military.

They are diplomats.

When someone gives them the middle finger, the have no choice but to deploy nice words of frustration and possible actions.

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,865
Yeah, the atrocities are mounting and I’m more apt to see more active steps to stop Putin’s slaughter. I still don’t have a problem with getting MiGs to UKR or any other implements Ukrainians request. My hope is that some of these things are being done without our knowledge. All of it should be done quietly. But it should be done. That’s a NATO issue, and NATO has certain limitations thanks to Hungary. But that leads to another conversation…
 

My gripe is with the UN. It’s only useful function that I see is helping refugees. What else is it doing here, and for what cost? It sure seems like a giant bureaucratic circle jerk to me. I question the efficacy of the whole fucking organization. Anytime an autocrat wants war, the UN is exposed as being neutered. 
 Neutered implies it once had balls. Nope. If the UN had the power to order member states to war there would be no members.  

 

LB 15

Cunt
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana.
Mikey Russia can not even defeat the Ukrainian people and he is not going to condemn millions of Russians to death by hurling nukes so how the fuck is he going to take on the rest of Europe? There are lots of Farmers with tractors in Europe. Admittedly most Europeans are not as tough as those toothless hillbilly's you brawl with regularly in your local biker bar, but still...

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
96,260
13,400
Earth
 Neutered implies it once had balls. Nope. If the UN had the power to order member states to war there would be no members.  
That’s not what I was getting at. Members of the security council might as well have no rules or obligations. Over the last twenty years, we’ve seen two members of the SC blow through borders and rules to do whatever their autocrat/deciderer wanted, one of them multiple times. 
 

It can’t order member states to war but as Olsonist points out, it can put together coalitions to stop slaughter…sometimes. 

 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
20,681
2,511
That’s not what I was getting at. Members of the security council might as well have no rules or obligations. Over the last twenty years, we’ve seen two members of the SC blow through borders and rules to do whatever their autocrat/deciderer wanted, one of them multiple times. 
 

It can’t order member states to war but as Olsonist points out, it can put together coalitions to stop slaughter…sometimes. 
It's well past time the permanent members lost their veto power.

It's well past time institutions like the international criminal court were a compulsory part of UN membership.

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,816
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Back to the desert
We did end up in an all out war with Japan that escalated to nukes.   Maybe that bit of history isn’t the best one to repeat.
So should we have stayed out of WWII because of the risk of it escalating to nuclear war?  You might want to go back and reread your analogy.  I don't think it's quite as "analogous" as you think it is.

 

Lark

Supper Anarchist
9,885
1,931
Ohio
So should we have stayed out of WWII because of the risk of it escalating to nuclear war?  You might want to go back and reread your analogy.  I don't think it's quite as "analogous" as you think it is.
We were attacked, but it was after we sent men to fight Japan with American planes, and a strict embargo.   It’s worth remembering the time that an embargo worked it caused Pearl Harbor instead of changing Japan’s behavior.   I do think it’s important to help Ukraine with weapons.   I’m hopeful it stays confined to Ukraine and any strikes they do of nearby Russian staging and transport locations.   I see the need for frustrating caution to avoid a general Northern Hemisphere war.   Putin and his military cannot like being shown to be so weak.   We saw the lengths the Trump administration would go to in America, with all its traditions, to avoid a peaceful transfer of power.    Putin and his lackeys may do literally anything to protect his fiefdom and avoid the fate of the Tsars.    

 
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Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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We were attacked, but it was after we sent men to fight Japan with American planes, and a strict embargo.   It’s worth remembering the time that an embargo worked it caused Pearl Harbor instead of changing Japan’s behavior.   I do think it’s important to help Ukraine with weapons.   I’m hopeful it stays confined to Ukraine and any strikes they do of nearby Russian staging and transport locations.   I see the need for frustrating caution to avoid a general Northern Hemisphere war.   Putin and his military cannot like being shown to be so weak.   We saw the lengths the Trump administration would go to in America, with all its traditions, to avoid a peaceful transfer of power.    Putin and his lackeys may do literally anything to protect his fiefdom and avoid the fate of the Tsars.    
Power ultimately gets down to a matter of human behavior. Why do certain people stay loyal?

Like most hereditary leaders, Tsar Nicholas took it for granted that the people around him were loyal to the Tsarist system generally and to him personally. He was not raised or educated to take any sort of leadership, although reports are that he was quite a nice guy in person. There were a lot of failures in the socio-economic system which lead many many people to turn against the system and against him, eventually his own bodyguards joined the movement and took him & his family captive.

There are a lot of leaders in history whose inner circle defended them to the last breath, literally.

Similarly, most Republicans circled the wagons and have staked their ultimate loyalty to Trump instead of the USA or the Constitution. This is why the American system of checks and balances has failed. The system gives people a job to do, but when they make a conscious decision to NOT do their job, that's human behavior and the loyalty question in a nutshell.

Will Putin be able to keep power as the system fails around him? His main qualities as a leader, that I've observed, is that he is able to be both ruthless and generous at the same time. What will it take for his inner circle to turn on him?

- DSK

 
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