New Beneteau First 36

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There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).

 

JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
425
UK
There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).
I’m quite looking forward to the boat launching. I’d also forgotten about the possibility of a SE version which sounds like it will carry a carbon rig and 2.55m keel from what you say. Will that keel be a lead fin? From my brief experience working with and sailing a 24se I was very impressed with how the interior laid out and finished and wondered if there would be liners for the deck and hull inside. Between me and my friend we specced a 3600 for short handed offshore racing which included a carbon mast, carbon boom, carbon floorboards, carbon washboard, lithium battery, removed the saloon table leaves (less to get broken and save weight but table top remained a table on irc), lighter weight upholstery (but more comfortable) and all factory pre wiring removed and a simpler system created from scratch. I can imagine a F36se with a similar spec to perform very well. 

 

neuronz

Anarchist
877
73
europe
There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).
Does the weight gain of modern boats also have to do with modern regulations and safety certifications? I remember when X-Yachts launched the XP33 many people were asking why it was so much heavier than the X-99, although design and construction techniques had advanced considerably. They commented that with similar scantlings to the X-99 they would not get the new boats ISO certified.

 

danstanford

Anarchist
574
132
Lake Ontario
For the sake of the early owners of the First 36 I really hope lessons have been learnt from the introduction of the First 27 to the market.  Please get it really sorted including accurate assembly instructions and a manifest of all the parts before sending an edition to a customer's appointed Beneteau agent. 
Have your issues been properly resolved? 

 

floater

Super Duper Anarchist
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quivira regnum
Does the weight gain of modern boats also have to do with modern regulations and safety certifications? I remember when X-Yachts launched the XP33 many people were asking why it was so much heavier than the X-99, although design and construction techniques had advanced considerably. They commented that with similar scantlings to the X-99 they would not get the new boats ISO certified.
it is a question worth asking. I don't think anyone would describe the 40yo express 37 as a stripped out racer. in fact, its not even considered an ultra-light.

IMGP1934-1024x680.jpg


 

European Bloke

Super Anarchist
3,407
825
I'm going to sympathise with Kristian in his key point. The market does demand a lot of shit gets added to boats of this type that don't do them any favours.

I don't think you have the option to not put it in if you want to sell any kind of volume. It has no place in a boat that aspires to plane...

 

floater

Super Duper Anarchist
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I'm going to sympathise with Kristian in his key point. The market does demand a lot of shit gets added to boats of this type that don't do them any favours.

I don't think you have the option to not put it in if you want to sell any kind of volume. It has no place in a boat that aspires to plane...
well. this boat is designed to carry some sail. SA/D = 29 up, 65 down - seems kind of nuts really. Not sure how that will square with the shorthanded goal in a windy venue.

but I agree. Kristian identified quite a few places to save some weight - like 80lbs just for countertops seems kind of nuts. (perhaps this is where Seascape might depart from the B-boat on an SE version).

 

nogetwe

Member
145
54
well. this boat is designed to carry some sail. SA/D = 29 up, 65 down - seems kind of nuts really. Not sure how that will square with the shorthanded goal in a windy venue.

but I agree. Kristian identified quite a few places to save some weight - like 80lbs just for countertops seems kind of nuts. (perhaps this is where Seascape might depart from the B-boat on an SE version).
Thank you Kristian!

Many people on this forum are probably not the target customer.

From my perspective the sail area is conservative;) You can always put a reef and a smaller jib.

 

neuronz

Anarchist
877
73
europe
it is a question worth asking. I don't think anyone would describe the 40yo express 37 as a stripped out racer. in fact, its not even considered an ultra-light.

Well to start with, modern layouts with separated cabins already have two additional bulkheads next to the compagnionway.

 

Snowden

Super Anarchist
1,031
519
UK
Between me and my friend we specced a 3600 for short handed offshore racing which included a carbon mast, carbon boom, carbon floorboards, carbon washboard, lithium battery, removed the saloon table leaves (less to get broken and save weight but table top remained a table on irc), lighter weight upholstery (but more comfortable) and all factory pre wiring removed and a simpler system created from scratch. I can imagine a F36se with a similar spec to perform very well. 
I'm sure you could do that with a F/SE 36 but I'm not sure why you would. A breathed-on SF3600 at 1.049 right at the front of IRC2 on the water seems a better proposition than this around the SF3300s with a bit of LWL upwind but otherwise slower and less fun (just so you can pretend you will cruise).

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).
Holy sh*t

Are you saying that Bénéteau S.A. is not your major shareholder -and for all intents and purposes- the parent company of Seascape d.o.o. any longer? It was communicated to be your 60% shareholder on 9 July 2018.

So all down payments and essentially also all quality and most importantly all liability falls back on you? Not a billion USD market cap conglomerate any longer?

When has this apparent change of ownership taken place? And when was it communicated?

Asking for a friend.

Who has shares.

 

danstanford

Anarchist
574
132
Lake Ontario
Holy sh*t

Are you saying that Bénéteau S.A. is not your major shareholder -and for all intents and purposes- the parent company of Seascape d.o.o. any longer? It was communicated to be your 60% shareholder on 9 July 2018.

So all down payments and essentially also all quality and most importantly all liability falls back on you? Not a billion USD market cap conglomerate any longer?

When has this apparent change of ownership taken place? And when was it communicated?

Asking for a friend.

Who has shares.
Come on man, if you ask these kinds of hard questions we won't have any participation from folks connected to the factories or designers. 

 
Those ballast specs are pretty light.  Lighter than the 36.7 which is a pretty tender boat and needs rail meat.

The stability index on the 36.7 is a problem - doesn’t qualify for many events. 

This new boat doesn’t have a carbon stick, does it?  Or water ballast?  So the hull form is enough to get it above the magic stability index numbers?  Or is this just an inshore racer?

 
And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
Well a tiller wasn’t an option in the US, ever.  So your market research on that is badly flawed.  Give me a simple tiller and minus the 60kg right there.  Can I have a single rudder too?  And can you put the 100kg of the 140kg or whatever we just pulled out of the stern into the keel?  And yes, I am absolutely a very credible sales prospect.

J/105s - the most sought after boats are the ones with tillers.

By all means let buyers cruisy them up with options.  But don’t force everyone to the lowest common denominator.

 
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230
First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

Few things to wrap up:

- customers are buying our boats from Beneteau ( i.e. its sales network) with all benefits and warranty services coming from this setup. Relations between SSC and BNT has no effect on end customer.

- market research was relying on many things including historic sales information regarding diff. options. If you sell majority of boats without certain option, this was not included in final configuration. Sorry, but more than 90% of 36.7 were sold without so we are keeping the tiller option for Seascape Edition, where there will be no wheels.

- as the topic is surfacing in this thread, I feel I should give some comments. The boat that was sent to John in China is very unfortunate as we sent second boat to a remote location . We had our share of mistakes which we do not hide from and they were amply compounded by a dealer who could not support the customer as he deserved. We wanted to send the factory team to CHN as we could solve all in few days, but could not enter due to covid restrictions so we were again relying only of the local representative. Third boat had mainly the same issues but came to an experienced dealer who did not even bothered informing us. We are discussing how to compensate customer but as said, it is part of the BNT warranty and aftersales system.

On a good side, today we laid down first layers for hull #2....

 

danstanford

Anarchist
574
132
Lake Ontario
First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

Few things to wrap up:

- customers are buying our boats from Beneteau ( i.e. its sales network) with all benefits and warranty services coming from this setup. Relations between SSC and BNT has no effect on end customer.

- market research was relying on many things including historic sales information regarding diff. options. If you sell majority of boats without certain option, this was not included in final configuration. Sorry, but more than 90% of 36.7 were sold without so we are keeping the tiller option for Seascape Edition, where there will be no wheels.

- as the topic is surfacing in this thread, I feel I should give some comments. The boat that was sent to John in China is very unfortunate as we sent second boat to a remote location . We had our share of mistakes which we do not hide from and they were amply compounded by a dealer who could not support the customer as he deserved. We wanted to send the factory team to CHN as we could solve all in few days, but could not enter due to covid restrictions so we were again relying only of the local representative. Third boat had mainly the same issues but came to an experienced dealer who did not even bothered informing us. We are discussing how to compensate customer but as said, it is part of the BNT warranty and aftersales system.

On a good side, today we laid down first layers for hull #2....
Thanks for opening up on this Kristian, it helps to understand. 

 
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