New Beneteau First 36

floater

Super Duper Anarchist
4,933
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quivira regnum
Thank you Kristian!

Many people on this forum are probably not the target customer.

From my perspective the sail area is conservative;) You can always put a reef and a smaller jib.
and off the wind? I guess the rig and sail plan remain something of a mystery. 

also - very cool Kristian hinted at the possibility of tillers. of course, it does look like more of a Beneteau with those wheels. An interesting boat for sure.

F36-Render2-scaled.jpg


 

George Dewey

Super Anarchist
2,071
118
Charleston, SC
Newport to Bermuda.
Transpac.  

Both require Capsize screen of 115 minimum.  Unmodified deep keel 36.7 is around 112.
This is right, also I think Marion to Bermuda and possibly (not sure about this) Halifax. I had a talk with Farr Yacht Design and, to get ready for the cancelled N2B race, and spent a lot of time and money designing and installing a "shoe" or plate for the bottom of my 36.7 keel to get it to the 115 number. The 36.7 is a pretty tender boat. That's once thing as a racer, but if you and your girl or family want to go for a cruise, it's less than ideal. Now, someone owns a much less tender 36.7. I traded to a J/111. That said, I do like this First 36 design. 

 
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Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
Come on man, if you ask these kinds of hard questions we won't have any participation from folks connected to the factories or designers. 
Come on man, if *someone* doesn't ask these hard questions, *someone* might end up with 250 k less and no boat. It has happened before. From the top of my hat: RM, Archambault, Bente, just in the last couple of years.

And this case I found most interesting. Everyone is under the impression that it's a Beneteau yacht while it is not. It is rather what Alpina is to BMW, a somehow associated design studio.

But don't come knocking if something's gone awry. Nope, talk to the dealers, talk to the Seascape guys.

I suppose you don't see the irony in your earlier comment?

'Very unsatifying I am sure. Beneteau should be doing something about this.'

No, they won't. And from what Kristian said, I suppose they don't have to.

 
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Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).
I take that as a yes. Especially the last sentence.

I did not find any press release or ad-hoc statement that hints to the restructuring of Seascape ownership, which was -per the 2018 press release- ' in scope' (of financial reporting, I believe).

Yes, your brand is no longer listed among the Beneteau brands like Delphia or now Starfisher, so 'technically', it is somewhat visible if you look for it.

But I think this is more than just a marketing or production issue. It goes way deeper to questions of liquidity, final liability and risk management.

Don't get me wrong, you will have success with this boat. It is a good design. It won't beat a JPK 10.80 under IRC, for sure, but it will be much more fun and comfy.

And better looking.

Still, the circumstances under which you put this project together should raise an eyebrow with anyone who has a quarter of a million USD (mas / menos) to invest.

 

danstanford

Anarchist
674
175
Lake Ontario
Come on man, if *someone* doesn't ask these hard questions, *someone* might end up with 250 k less and no boat. It has happened before. From the top of my hat: RM, Archambault, Bente, just in the last couple of years.

And this case I found most interesting. Everyone is under the impression that it's a Beneteau yacht while it is not. It is rather what Alpina is to BMW, a somehow associated design studio.

But don't come knocking if something's gone awry. Nope, talk to the dealers, talk to the Seascape guys.

I suppose you don't see the irony in your earlier comment?

'Very unsatifying I am sure. Beneteau should be doing something about this.'

No, they won't. And from what Kristian said, I suppose they don't have to.
No irony involved. Kristian is not an official spokesperson nor could he respond for either company I am sure. The people to yell at may be hard to find but if you want this little conduit you cannot beat him up or demand answers or his bosses will shut it down. 

I stand by my original statement that Beneteau should be listening and doing something about it and Kristian's response indicated he was hearing the issue. 

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
No irony involved. Kristian is not an official spokesperson nor could he respond for either company I am sure. The people to yell at may be hard to find but if you want this little conduit you cannot beat him up or demand answers or his bosses will shut it down. 

I stand by my original statement that Beneteau should be listening and doing something about it and Kristian's response indicated he was hearing the issue. 
Er, what? Again, as I see it, Beneteau will not do anything for you beyond giving you a prospectus or a dealer's phone number.

I applaud Kristian's honesty and willingness to share here, it is more than many others have done.

But if you come here, you know that it is not always a hot stone massage.

Kristian is CTO, founder and (at least was) major shareholder of this company.

I think he's tough enough to not consider these questions as 'beating him up' or being simply 'shut down'.

 

inneedofadvice

Super Anarchist
1,495
218
Sarnia
First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).
Thanks for participating here Kristian. This comment makes it seem like Beneteau is reading these threads, and someone important enough to 'dress down' a corporate partner. If this is so, are they just choosing to ignore @Qingdaosog's issues with his 27?

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
EU rules, who sells it is responsible to client. Not who makes it.
I don't think so, no.

In the EU 27, product liability laws are national laws. They base on a EU directive that was mandatory to be put into national law.

You could probably base a whole career in law on this, but the pivotal point is: No. Not who sells it is liable per se, more often it is the original producer. E.g. in German law, the producer is liable and only exempt in very specific circumstances. Even a contract between original producer and final customer is not necessary for having a claim against the producer.

Think of it this way: You buy a somehow contaminated beer from company A at store chain B and get very sick. Your claim is still not against B but against A (unless A can prove they warned B in time not to bring the product into circulation).

 
213
236
Genlemen, no worries. Am old enough to have a good margin above snowflake generation so I can take some and come back for more

- Leo gave you a good example. These boats are sold under First brand and Beneteau is making sure the customer gets all the safety nets needed regarding the investment, aftersales, etc. This is the same for all boats, from F14 to F36.

- as said before, John's 27 is a very unfortunate case. I am not proud about it and we are as always 100% at disposal to BNT warranty network which ends with CHN dealer who sold the boat to John. As said before, we offered a team to go there and fix the obvious issues, but we were not allowed to enter China. Other few cases were solved with minimum downtime and way less than a gallon of sikaflex...
-I do not mind answering your questions, but I would like way more if we can discuss technical side of the boat(s). For example... when asked Sam Manuard "what do you liek the most about this boat" he said "would it be too arrogant if I say hull shape?" Weknow him for years, actually we first met a day before his start of minitrasant in 2003 when we asked him if we can build two  of his minitrasat prototypes. Latter he admitted "there were two guy asking for the boat... and I thought nothing will come out of that"... Two minitransats and roughly 1.100 delivered boats latter, we grew together with mutual respect and it is really fun to work with Sam. Adding Pure Design & Engineering with structural engineering to the Team, it is really nice to work on the boat that is exciting - not complicated, but detailed. You add fibres and details where needed and you have super simple and light panels where you don't need it.

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
12,681
3,740
The Netherlands
Yep. I dealt with China, and it is .... complicated. Sold to US too, and all I can say, complicated too. 

I don't think so, no.
To make the discussion short, in 99,9% of the cases it is right. Unless, like the Dieselgate, fraud is in play you can try a class action to producer.

 

Matagi

Ambassador of the Republic of R'lyeh
Yep. I dealt with China, and it is .... complicated. Sold to US too, and all I can say, complicated too. 

To make the discussion short, in 99,9% of the cases it is right. Unless, like the Dieselgate, fraud is in play you can try a class action to producer.
No. I think you're confusing law and reality here.

In reality 99,9% of cases end in settlement way before they ever reach a court. Most times, neither party has the will to either spend money (customer) or have their reputation tarnished or -worse- secrets exposed (producer).

But let's not turn this into SA law school (any more than I have), ok? It's complicated. I agree with that.

 
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DingDong

New member
18
10
UK
I’m sure there are better forums for detailed discussions of EU and Commercial Law than this one.

All of this will come down to performance on the water / handicap. Seascape and Beneteau have reputations to protect so lets presume that this is their strongest card for the competitive double handed market.

I’m off to Düsseldorf with my sailing partner to touch and feel the 36 in January. I’ll report back!

 

LeoV

Super Anarchist
12,681
3,740
The Netherlands
No. I think you're confusing law and reality here.
You brought the discussion up, not me.
No, in all EU countries the seller (or trader in EU terms) is the one responsible, that is the  basis. Some EU countries have laws on top of that to go directly to manufacturer.
But first you go to trader. So BNT is involved and can not turn you away with complaints. For EU customers that is.

Back to technical discussions. The return of the racer cruiser...
 

 

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