New boat for solo/double for inshore, Vic-Maui, Transpac and cruising

[Black Jack]

Dang man! you and I have a lot in common.... I drove my R80GS from Ushuaia to Washington DC, but clearly avoiding a few countries all in all almost 30K miles.
what shipyards are you going to visit? Maybe you can share some of the info you learn?

As you can see it will take 2 separate rides to complete. The north and west followed by south and east in the next.

Ideally I would like to hit Yachtwerft Benjamin in Emdem Germany then ride to the Holland and check out Saffier then to Koudekerke to Essense Yachts then on to Brest to some of the best builders including those for Pogo then ride some countryside. On the second portion or if I get more time - down to Grand Soleil in Italy with a stop over in Como, Bologna for a track day at Ducati and then to Venice, ferry to Croatia, Slovenia, Dolomites and back to Germany.

I really look forward to learning as much as I can, take lots of photos and videos and take in and share what I learned.

for what it is worth and not the direction the OP is going - I do like the Essence 33. It works for me aesthetically, i like she is fast enough, the lower freeboard and the kind of sailing I like to do plus has a cockpit that can entertain my friends.

 

[Jambalaya]

The newer J's are a bit more tender eg 122 which is why they did the 121 (I do lose track of all the models) ... an older 120 might suit you very well (not a planning boat though) and as you say aiming low re LOA and maint budget is worldy wise. Back when I was racing 105 double handed 120s were out and doing races like AZAB

 

[HILLY]

Literally it is a combo of both, I do agree that if anything at my age a little extra comfort would be good, but I also want to go really fast. This past battle with cancer made me realize that I need to squeeze everything out of what I have left and nothing brings a bigger smile than going 18Knts+. Today I was fantasizing going south after a transpac to visit some friends in NZL and Papa New Guinea
I looked to the GS44 and it is a beautiful boat but it is more than I can handle. $450-500K is the absolutely max out of the door And the GS44 is close to $700k out of the door with a good set of sails, all up B&G 5000 or NKE, taxes and commissioning.
I rather buy a little less and be able to keep it in top shape. My years of heavy money making are almost over too.

If you want to skip the Transpac, and maybe do another Hobart, then go to N.Z. and New Guinea, this is sitting in Hobart, priced in Aussie Pesos...
I have no connection with the boat, so dont know the condition, but there are a few anarchists here that are down that way.

UNDER OFFER - Class 40 Akilaria RC2 - Vicsail - Your experts in yachting

www.vicsail.com

 

[Black Jack]

Sexy ass boat. But no way is that an optimal shorthander with comfort cruising potential.

 

[giegs]

Wouldn't the 3m draft of a class 40 limit its cruising potential significantly as well? A shallower fin or swing/lifting keel of some sort leaves a lot more options open.

 

[F18 Sailor]

I would be looking for a Pogo 12.5 or possibly a Pogo 40 if the 12.5 isn’t an option. Essentially a Class 40 with cruising interior. The 36 is another good option, but would be waiting for a new build.

12.5 for sale: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2015-pogo-1250-8308756/

 

[vikram]

Italia yachts

 

[dreamingwet]

I would be looking for a Pogo 12.5 or possibly a Pogo 40 if the 12.5 isn’t an option. Essentially a Class 40 with cruising interior. The 36 is another good option, but would be waiting for a new build.

12.5 for sale: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2015-pogo-1250-8308756/

I tried to get in touch with the broker but I got no response, I will reach out again.

 

[dreamingwet]

Wouldn't the 3m draft of a class 40 limit its cruising potential significantly as well? A shallower fin or swing/lifting keel of some sort leaves a lot more options open.

The draft would reduce some of the cruising here in the PNW and SP but I would be willing to live with it if I find the right boat. The benefit of an Open40 is that they are fast and very light, so adding weight by adding some amenities, like a proper toilet with shower, a kitchen, watermaker, more comfortable berths and heater would make the boat less "violent/stressful" (?) while keeping a lot of it's inherit speed and stability.
I would love to hear some thoughts about modifying an Open40.

I think that so far it looks like the options are

• Used Pogo/JPK/SF3600. Are there other production boats that would plane and I should consider?
• Used Open40
• JPK1180 and wait for 18-20 months, which is better than the 4 years for the Pogo44?
• Custom Open40 style boat, but I would find it very hard to believe that I could get what I want that would fit my budget. Maybe a stretched Riptide35 MK3?
• J121 or something similar.

I have not seen the Pogo44 but I have read in this forum that the build quality is not as good as the Pogo12.5, is this true?

 

[dreamingwet]

If you want to skip the Transpac, and maybe do another Hobart, then go to N.Z. and New Guinea, this is sitting in Hobart, priced in Aussie Pesos...
I have no connection with the boat, so dont know the condition, but there are a few anarchists here that are down that way.

UNDER OFFER - Class 40 Akilaria RC2 - Vicsail - Your experts in yachting

www.vicsail.com

Do you know anyone in this forum that I could ask to go and take a look at it?

 

[Snowden]

Used Pogo/JPK/SF3600. Are there other production boats that would plane and I should consider?

Did someone already mention the new Bene First 36?

 

[dreamingwet]

Did someone already mention the new Bene First 36?

Not yet, but my experience with Beneteau is that they never come withing the claimed weight and are very heavy.
Do you have any experience with their new 36?

 

[Snowden]

Not yet, but my experience with Beneteau is that they never come withing the claimed weight and are very heavy.
Do you have any experience with their new 36?

It's worth checking the thread in the main SA forum but the general feeling seems to be that this one has Seascape DNA, a top naval architect and an advanced build process, giving it a good chance of coming in at the <5T claimed displacement and being fun & fast to sail.

 

[Black Jack]

A Mumm/Farr 36 that secured delamination issues with installed water ballast and a few more kilos in the keel would be an interesting exploration for a short handed racer/cruiser. All in for under 75k, maybe a bit less if one is connected or does the upgrades themselves.

 

[F18 Sailor]

I doubt the Pogo 44 has worse build quality than the Pogo 12.50. Certainly not where it matters, i.e in structure. I only found one thread with much discussion on the boat, and that was in comparison to a grand soleil 44, which has a nicer interior but is a much heavier, more cruisy boat. One comment on the 44 is they are using more plastic than the 12.5 on the interior. Hard to say from 3000+ miles away if that is true. I would contact the factory and ask for interior/build pics and the full price sheet.

On the other boat options:
1) I’d probably remove the SF3600. It’s very race oriented with a cockpit and interior layout that are going to be tough (uncomfortable) to cruise.
2) I’d add the First 36 to your list, as it does look to check most of your boxes if they can keep the weight down.
3) A stretched Riptide 35 is effectively what Blue, the Riptide 41 is. I’d definitely ping Betts/Bieker and get some more details, especially if the rumor that Blue might be for sale is true.

Finally, I think I’d drop the J/121 from the list. My understanding is only half of them have been built with the water ballast option, as it’s heavily penalized under the current rating systems. They would be a lot of boat to sail solo without the water ballast, and none of the J boats are well setup for short handed work. Running costs are also quite high, close to $100/year in maintenance and sails plus dockage etc. Most in the northeast have full time boat captains and paid crew for races, so even more $ than baseline maintenance.

Of all the J/boats, while not the fastest or the newest, I think I would take a 120 and set it up for short handed sailing. Stock they are pretty good for this; I know a family of 4 that spent a month on the boat last summer and were relatively happy. Unfortunately, they are a bit too heavy and tender in the rear to properly plane downwind.

 

[danstanford]

Finally, I think I’d drop the J/121 from the list. My understanding is only half of them have been built with the water ballast option, as it’s heavily penalized under the current rating systems. They would be a lot of boat to sail solo without the water ballast, and none of the J boats are well setup for short handed work.

I haven't sailed a J/121 but I own a J/88 with a cockpit very much laid out like the J/111, J/112e, J/99 and others and I cannot imagine what could be made better for shorthanded sailing. What is wrong with J's?

 

[dreamingwet]

I doubt the Pogo 44 has worse build quality than the Pogo 12.50. Certainly not where it matters, i.e in structure. I only found one thread with much discussion on the boat, and that was in comparison to a grand soleil 44, which has a nicer interior but is a much heavier, more cruisy boat. One comment on the 44 is they are using more plastic than the 12.5 on the interior. Hard to say from 3000+ miles away if that is true. I would contact the factory and ask for interior/build pics and the full price sheet.

On the other boat options:
1) I’d probably remove the SF3600. It’s very race oriented with a cockpit and interior layout that are going to be tough (uncomfortable) to cruise.
2) I’d add the First 36 to your list, as it does look to check most of your boxes if they can keep the weight down.
3) A stretched Riptide 35 is effectively what Blue, the Riptide 41 is. I’d definitely ping Betts/Bieker and get some more details, especially if the rumor that Blue might be for sale is true.

Finally, I think I’d drop the J/121 from the list. My understanding is only half of them have been built with the water ballast option, as it’s heavily penalized under the current rating systems. They would be a lot of boat to sail solo without the water ballast, and none of the J boats are well setup for short handed work. Running costs are also quite high, close to $100/year in maintenance and sails plus dockage etc. Most in the northeast have full time boat captains and paid crew for races, so even more $ than baseline maintenance.

Of all the J/boats, while not the fastest or the newest, I think I would take a 120 and set it up for short handed sailing. Stock they are pretty good for this; I know a family of 4 that spent a month on the boat last summer and were relatively happy. Unfortunately, they are a bit too heavy and tender in the rear to properly plane downwind.

I would not buy a J121 without the water ballast.
I sailed one for one afternoon and although not much wind 8knts it fell pretty nimble. I would do some mods but they are minimal.
Just curious and not trying to antagonize you, where do you get the $100K a year budget?
I raced my Swan club 42, not skimping on sails or maintenance for far less, not including entry fees, the same for with open 40 once set up about $25k-$35k plus some additional as required.

I do not need paid crew either, I love working on my boats and for those things that I do not want to do myself I would take the boat to a good yard; + I am/was very happy on the results on all the races we entered, we won quite a few and placed in many more all over Europe and South America.

@danstanford, the only thing that is pushing me away from a J121 is its price. A new JPK 11.8 with some mods and all the additional options including carbon mast and boom, solo optimized keel, water ballast, and few other improvements would be less than a used J121.

Do you know what is the wait for a brand new J121?

 

[Jambalaya]

Finally, I think I’d drop the J/121 from the list. My understanding is only half of them have been built with the water ballast option, as it’s heavily penalized under the current rating systems. They would be a lot of boat to sail solo without the water ballast, and none of the J boats are well setup for short handed work.

I haven't sailed a J/121 but I own a J/88 with a cockpit very much laid out like the J/111, J/112e, J/99 and others and I cannot imagine what could be made better for shorthanded sailing. What is wrong with J's?

In Europe J-boats which were dominant in the short handed scene from 2000-2010 (?) have been totaly replaced as the go-to designs by Juneau Sunfast and JPK. That’s customers voting with their wallets.

My last J-boat had a defective keel which took 2 years to sort out via “warranty” and as a result ended up costing me $100k to do 1/2 season of racing. I suspect common knowledge of these sort of problems affecting a number of boats probably had something to do with the falling sales.

 

[solosailor]

Running costs are also quite high, close to $100/year in maintenance and sails plus dockage etc.

WTF?

 

[dreamingwet]

WTF?

Maybe he meant 10K?