New boat for solo/double for inshore, Vic-Maui, Transpac and cruising

[dreamingwet]

Question, about taking a boat for a sail.
I just contacted "Marine Servicenter", to see if they would show their SF3600 and if I am interested to take it for a test sail with them but they said that only if I buy it.
Is this normal that a dealer would not take an interested person for a test sail in the USA?

 

[longy]

Sail trials are normally after an offer has been acepted. Otherwise too many tire kickers get free sailing trip

 

[dreamingwet]

Sail trials are normally after an offer has been acepted. Otherwise too many tire kickers get free sailing trip

Can you explain what is "after an offer has been accepted"? sorry English as 7th language
Is it that if I make an offer for $x and they accept it then I get to go for a trial?
What would be the point of a sea trial if I already made an offer, can I after the trial say I am sorry and not buy the boat?
Not trying to be difficult, I want to understand the process in the USA.
thanks

 

[psycho tiller]

Can you explain what is "after an offer has been accepted"? sorry English as 7th language
Is it that if I make an offer for $x and they accept it then I get to go for a trial?
What would be the point of a sea trial if I already made an offer, can I after the trial say I am sorry and not buy the boat?
Not trying to be difficult, I want to understand the process in the USA.
thanks

Generally speaking and the case with all boats I've purchased, an agreement on price, then a significant deposit has to be paid before a sea trial. Kind of stupid but kind of understandable depending on which side you're on. Really stupid that you have to put a deposit down before even taking the boat out on a sea trial but a good idea if you're selling a boat and don't want to give a bunch of people free boat rides. Even though that's not what your intention is a few bad apples exploiting the situation ruins it for legitimate potential buyers.

 

[psycho tiller]

But yes, you can put a deposit down, take the sea trial and under normal conditions you should be able to get a full refund if you decide to not proceed with the purchase. Of course that's something you should specifically ask about just in case there's a stipulation in the purchase agreement regarding no refund.

 

[dreamingwet]

Generally speaking and the case with all boats I've purchased, an agreement on price, then a significant deposit has to be paid before a sea trial. Kind of stupid but kind of understandable depending on which side you're on. Really stupid that you have to put a deposit down before even taking the boat out on a sea trial but a good idea if you're selling a boat and don't want to give a bunch of people free boat rides. Even though that's not what your intention is a few bad apples exploiting the situation ruins it for legitimate potential buyers.

then basically the boat is mine (my first sail) and not a sea trial, correct??

 

[dreamingwet]

But yes, you can put a deposit down, take the sea trial and under normal conditions you should be able to get a full refund if you decide to not proceed with the purchase. Of course that's something you should specifically ask about just in case there's a stipulation in the purchase agreement regarding no refund.

thanks!

 

[psycho tiller]

then basically the boat is mine (my first sail) and not a sea trial, correct??

I think deposits vary by percentage but it's just a portion of the price. Full price is paid after you either complete the sea trial and survey or all contingencies are removed. At that time you pay the rest of the price of the boat then it's yours! Typically many buyers do the sea trial the same day as the survey and the surveyor goes on the sea trial with you to look over the boat while it's sailing, (or just because they like free rides!).

 

[psycho tiller]

The "purchase agreement" you sign after an agreement on price is made, followed by the deposit also has some protection for you as well because it prevents the seller from selling it to someone else should they come along and offer more money than you agreed to. Understandably, still a lot of hassle just to take a boat out for a test sail as a legitimate possible buyer. The agreed upon price is however still typically somewhat negotiable if things come up on the survey or other unusual circumstances come into play.

 

[F18 Sailor]

Maybe he meant 10K?

Nope, I meant $100k. Maintenance and sail budget is ~$50k. Add a full time paid captain, which most of the boats in the Newport area have, and you are at $100k/year.

You stated $25-$35k for maintenance 4-5+ years ago, with you doing the majority of the labor, i.e that number is just parts and sails. Almost all the J/121's I know of are professionally maintained, meaning you are paying someone else for the labor. Hence its fairly reasonable to double your $25k number to $50k, and that might be on the low end.

Another metric is expect to spend 10% of the cost of the boat when new per year on basic maintenance. I think 20% net if racing is a realistic number. For a J/121, sail-away price is around $600k, so that is $60k/year for basic maintenance, up to $120k/year if racing at the grand prix level.

 

[F18 Sailor]

Finally, I think I’d drop the J/121 from the list. My understanding is only half of them have been built with the water ballast option, as it’s heavily penalized under the current rating systems. They would be a lot of boat to sail solo without the water ballast, and none of the J boats are well setup for short handed work.

I haven't sailed a J/121 but I own a J/88 with a cockpit very much laid out like the J/111, J/112e, J/99 and others and I cannot imagine what could be made better for shorthanded sailing. What is wrong with J's?

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the J/boat cockpit layout for shorthanded sailing, but the rest of the boat setup leaves a bit to be desired. For example, almost all the sails on a sunfast are setup for roller furling, whereas the J's are not. They are also more expensive than the equivalent European boats for arguably worse build quality and poorer downwind performance (but solid overall performance on handicap).

 

[Black Jack]

Question, about taking a boat for a sail.
I just contacted "Marine Servicenter", to see if they would show their SF3600 and if I am interested to take it for a test sail with them but they said that only if I buy it.
Is this normal that a dealer would not take an interested person for a test sail in the USA?

I would rather go with a weeks charter. A day sail doesn't make a sea trial. Chartering one is a reasonable for a test or race; maybe the most practical of all choices. Undoubtedly there is a place that you would want to sail one. Like going away on a holiday before you pop the question to a supermodel that might have issues.

You might find that chartering a larger boat for that big ocean race and keeping a smaller, less expensive one as your daily is the wisest choice of all.

 

[dreamingwet]

Nope, I meant $100k. Maintenance and sail budget is ~$50k. Add a full time paid captain, which most of the boats in the Newport area have, and you are at $100k/year.

You stated $25-$35k for maintenance 4-5+ years ago, with you doing the majority of the labor, i.e that number is just parts and sails. Almost all the J/121's I know of are professionally maintained, meaning you are paying someone else for the labor. Hence its fairly reasonable to double your $25k number to $50k, and that might be on the low end.

Another metric is expect to spend 10% of the cost of the boat when new per year on basic maintenance. I think 20% net if racing is a realistic number. For a J/121, sail-away price is around $600k, so that is $60k/year for basic maintenance, up to $120k/year if racing at the grand prix level.

F18, a couple of things, if the J121 sail away is $600k then it is out of my purchase budget, and it is low in my preferences.
I would never hire a professional to keep or race on my boat, I was a pro and there are few things I would chose not to do myself.

For 500K or less there are other boats I would rather buy, including an Open40 and adding a proper bathroom, larger diesel and fresh water tanks, stove, fridge, hot water, berths, and watermaker.

In the case I wanted to get a pro I have plenty of life long friends that are pros in the TP52 Series, AC, Fast40+ and a couple of Maxi that schedule permitting would like to sail with me.

The reason I am in SA asking is because I have been out of sailing for 8-9years while battling Cancer, and a lot has changed and there are very informed people in SA that I love learning from.

Plus I never bought a boat in the USA and have no clue on how I would I would import a boat from Europe, NZ or Australia into the USA.

I am in no hurry, but if the right boat comes across I will buy it.

 

[solosailor]

For a J/121, sail-away price is around $600k, so that is $60k/year for basic maintenance

$5k a month for a 41' boat in maintenance alone...... hahahahahaha.

 

[dreamingwet]

I would rather go with a weeks charter. A day sail doesn't make a sea trial. Chartering one is a reasonable for a test or race; maybe the most practical of all choices. Undoubtedly there is a place that you would want to sail one. Like going away on a holiday before you pop the question to a supermodel that might have issues.

You might find that chartering a larger boat for that big ocean race and keeping a smaller, less expensive one as your daily is the wisest choice of all.

Hello Black Jack, I considered chartering but to be frank I want to have my boat, that when I am not racing I can take it to somewhere, like Desolation Sound, San Juan's, Mexico, CA, Hawaii, SP and work from there for a month or 2.

I am not saying that this will be my last boat, but I would be surprised if it was. So lets say I get an Open40 and start modifying/adding some comfort I can take my time so for when I retire in 5-6 years I have a fast and decently comfortable boat I can race and go anywhere.
I was hoping for something like the Pogo44 because its size and comfort but it looks like it is not realistic for me to wait for 4 years, a JPK 11.80 is more realistic.

I will love to hear what you learn from your trip to the EU.

 

[dreamingwet]

$5k a month for a 41' boat in maintenance alone...... hahahahahaha.

Are you agreeing with him and saying that $5K is too little for a J121, or think it is too much ? I am sorry English is not my language.

 

[solosailor]

$5k monthly in "maintenance" sounds ridiculous. What does a yearly race bottom cost? What does ALL the running rigging cost (not that you would replace it all yearly), 2-3 bottom cleaning a month costs? Oh I went back and re-read his post..... he is bundling in sails with maintenance but even then how many sails in the inventory need replacing yearly.... 1-3?

 

[dreamingwet]

$5k monthly in "maintenance" sounds ridiculous. What does a yearly race bottom cost? What does ALL the running rigging cost (not that you would replace it all yearly), 2-3 bottom cleaning a month costs? Oh I went back and re-read his post..... he is bundling in sails with maintenance but even then how many sails in the inventory need replacing yearly.... 1-3?

thanks, I am glad I am not off on my budget.

 

[psycho tiller]

Are you agreeing with him and saying that $5K is too little for a J121, or think it is too much ? I am sorry English is not my language.

For someone such as yourself who does most of the work, is hands on with their boat and doesn't hire a professional captain I'd say your estimate of 25-35K/yr is reasonable and probably close to what I spend. Some years will be much less, some more depending on sails and bottom paint adding $$$$. If you're someone who races every single weekend and replaces all of your sails every year it's going to be a lot more, and the whole hire a captain or a full time boat manager is just another level of insanity.

Regional costs for slips, occasional yard fees for bottom paints and other projects that aren't easily done DIY, etc. will come into play as well.

It's really best to not even think about the cost of boats though, that can lead to a very dark place. Owning a boat is about the dumbest financial decision you'll ever make. But sometimes it's just too much fun to be wrong.

 

[dreamingwet]

For someone such as yourself who does most of the work, is hands on with their boat and doesn't hire a professional captain I'd say your estimate of 25-35K/yr is reasonable and probably close to what I spend. Some years will be much less, some more depending on sails and bottom paint adding $$$$. If you're someone who races every single weekend and replaces all of your sails every year it's going to be a lot more, and the whole hire a captain or a full time boat manager is just another level of insanity.

Regional costs for slips, occasional yard fees for bottom paints and other projects that aren't easily done DIY, etc. will come into play as well.

There is no way I would be doing myself the fairing and bottom, standing rigging, or full rewiring for example, nor buying a full set of sails every year.

I have no interest in going back to "Grand Prix" level racing either. I do not see myself buying more than a new sail or 2 for a specific race like Transpac or similar, aside from replacing those sails and rigging that need replacement.

I think that my scaled down budget is in line with what I used to spend on my previous boats in Europe racing pretty much every major regatta and 3-4 sails + fairing and new bottom paint every year.