New boat for solo/double for inshore, Vic-Maui, Transpac and cruising

Countryclub

Member
160
18
seattle
I looked at a Class 40 in Spain last year AK1 #82 it might be still for sale ?
I ended up with #15 ex Bolands Mill . My immediate goals included just a little overnighting in Maine so I went with the race interior . Now that R2AK is all done its off to Maine and learn how to make it go !
 

dreamingwet

Member
228
75
I looked at a Class 40 in Spain last year AK1 #82 it might be still for sale ?
I ended up with #15 ex Bolands Mill . My immediate goals included just a little overnighting in Maine so I went with the race interior . Now that R2AK is all done its off to Maine and learn how to make it go !
did you bring your boat from Europe then?
I would love to connect if at all possible and not an imposition to get some hints on how the process works.
Thank you!
 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
There is no way I would be doing myself the fairing and bottom, standing rigging, or full rewiring for example, nor buying a full set of sails every year.

I have no interest in going back to "Grand Prix" level racing either. I do not see myself buying more than a new sail or 2 for a specific race like Transpac or similar, aside from replacing those sails and rigging that need replacement.

I think that my scaled down budget is in line with what I used to spend on my previous boats in Europe racing pretty much every major regatta and 3-4 sails + fairing and new bottom paint every year.
Dreaming,

I think your budget is OK, but keep in mind that with inflation (Raw materials+labor costs) and the short supply of labor, marine items and projects have gotten quite expensive. I suspect a grand prix level bottom job on a 40 footer is going to run $30k, and you could easily spend $50k if you are fairing the keel and rudder with templates at the same time. Not saying you need to do that, and you can probably get a run of the mill bottom job done for under $15k, but this is the sort of thing that has made racing 40 foot boats expensive.

Also, yes, the whole reason I brought up the silly level of spending on the J/121 is as a prime example of what boat not to buy. I think the marketing department at J/boats have done a fine job selling the "holy grail" of 40 footers, when there are several European competitors building lighter, faster boats that are more properly sorted for shorthanded sailing at 20-50% less than J/boats are asking.
 

solosailor

Super Anarchist
4,212
907
San Francisco Bay
I suspect a grand prix level bottom job on a 40 footer is going to run $30k, and you could easily spend $50k if you are fairing the keel and rudder with templates at the same time. Not saying you need to do that, and you can probably get a run of the mill bottom job done for under $15k, but this is the sort of thing that has made racing 40 foot boats expensive.
We just did a new bottom on a 41' boat that needed numerous section taken down to remove some failing barrier coat including the keel and rudder. This was not a neglected boat and had been well taken care of. Whole bottom job was $15k at a premium yard. A replacement bottom job ("run of the mill") quote from the same yard without the extra work was $7k for 3x sprayed layers. Maybe don't show up to the yard with a Ferrari and they won't bump up the quote so much.
 
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shaggybaxter

Super Anarchist
4,534
2,576
Australia
Hi Dreaming,
I get where you're coming from. IMHO, fast and comfortable trumps faster and uncomfortable.
I'm surprised how much I now prefer speed and comfort in equal measure when I've always favored a scale tipped toward speed alone.
The comfort part for me used to be about the motion of the boat. But equally, comfort should be judged in the ease in which the boat can be sailed. The bonus, this 'middle ground' style boat doesn't need to be the fastest, just fast enough. Sail short handed sailing with speed must rank among the most rewarding sailing experiences I've been fortunate enough to have.

I was exiting a river one night with a lot of commercial shipping activity, it was a tight close hauled beat up to the next mark and I'm hugging the markers just outside the shipping lane with nasty shoreline and stuff to leeward. A dirty great LNG tanker with accompanying tugs is taking up the entire lane and I'm worried about the pressure wave pushing me into the shallows. I sheet the boom over the centreline to keep some shape, leave the autohelm driving to magnetic and park in the companionway with sheets in hand as the pressure wave comes. The boat hardly registers it, the helm moves a degree or two then goes silent, we're gliding up a narrow track close hauled with impeccable manners. It's eery how still and quiet the motion is, it feel like I'm inside a still photo.

Clearing the last mark, crack off 10 deg with a button press and ease on the traveller and barber hauler. The slot is good and the sails hook up, you get that shove in your back from the lighter weight and more horsepower. The chatter off the transom becomes apparent, it's the only noise aside from the wind, there's a million stars over open water on both bows and a building breeze. It's a stunning night for a sail.
The wind's building so I swap the fresh coffee and cabin settee for the companionway to drop the boat onto a reach. The boat accelerates onto the plane, the heel pronounced but the keel is planted. Another club boat is half a mile ahead and I bag everything out to steer down to holler hello. The boat speed jumps, the rudders start singing, I'm trying to slow down but to no avail, barely enough time to trade some friendly insults as I pass them at 12 knots then it's clear water as far as you can see.
I end up in my favorite spot perched up in the windward pushpit, coffee in hand and just sit back to just enjoy the ride. The boat is more lively without the normal crew weight and is trucking along, wake like a ruler. I pass the next few hours alternating between watching the stars, and playing with damping settings on the autohelm. Open water all around, a fresh 18 knots of breeze and nothing to do. I make some dinner, catch up on Anarchy and download gribs before I lose coverage. The boat is warm, dry and comfortable and I'm happy just chilling below with periodic visits no further than the companionway to keep an eye out.

The AIS beeps, so with a fresh brew of coffee it's upstairs to slip past a trawler. The night is stunning, decks are dry so I stay up there and just drink it in, it's one of those moments where you have not a care in the world. The boat is so balanced it's indifferent to the human on board and I haven't had to touch the helm in hours. I turn the pilot off and flaff about playing with different sail trims to steer the boat around just for something to do. I'm doing nothing yet find myself exhilarated, I'm yahooing into the darkness from the sheer joy of just standing there.

That root of that exhilaration is simple, boats that are easy to sail and sail fast. They might not win the pickle dishes, but even a boat that swings a little to either side of the scale I find the same. It might be 'middle ground' to some, but hands down it has given me my some of most rewarding sailing experiences.

Best of luck in your search!
SB
 

MiddayGun

Super Anarchist
1,190
449
Yorkshire
Hi Dreaming,
*********snip************

That root of that exhilaration is simple, boats that are easy to sail and sail fast. They might not win the pickle dishes, but even a boat that swings a little to either side of the scale I find the same. It might be 'middle ground' to some, but hands down it has given me my some of most rewarding sailing experiences.

Best of luck in your search!
SB

Beautifully written post. I enjoyed reading it.
 

Cashelmore

Member
50
11
Also, yes, the whole reason I brought up the silly level of spending on the J/121 is as a prime example of what boat not to buy. I think the marketing department at J/boats have done a fine job selling the "holy grail" of 40 footers, when there are several European competitors building lighter, faster boats that are more properly sorted for shorthanded sailing at 20-50% less than J/boats are asking.

Such as?
 

dreamingwet

Member
228
75
Hi Dreaming,
I get where you're coming from. IMHO, fast and comfortable trumps faster and uncomfortable.
I'm surprised how much I now prefer speed and comfort in equal measure when I've always favored a scale tipped toward speed alone.
The comfort part for me used to be about the motion of the boat. But equally, comfort should be judged in the ease in which the boat can be sailed. The bonus, this 'middle ground' style boat doesn't need to be the fastest, just fast enough. Sail short handed sailing with speed must rank among the most rewarding sailing experiences I've been fortunate enough to have.

I was exiting a river one night with a lot of commercial shipping activity, it was a tight close hauled beat up to the next mark and I'm hugging the markers just outside the shipping lane with nasty shoreline and stuff to leeward. A dirty great LNG tanker with accompanying tugs is taking up the entire lane and I'm worried about the pressure wave pushing me into the shallows. I sheet the boom over the centreline to keep some shape, leave the autohelm driving to magnetic and park in the companionway with sheets in hand as the pressure wave comes. The boat hardly registers it, the helm moves a degree or two then goes silent, we're gliding up a narrow track close hauled with impeccable manners. It's eery how still and quiet the motion is, it feel like I'm inside a still photo.

Clearing the last mark, crack off 10 deg with a button press and ease on the traveller and barber hauler. The slot is good and the sails hook up, you get that shove in your back from the lighter weight and more horsepower. The chatter off the transom becomes apparent, it's the only noise aside from the wind, there's a million stars over open water on both bows and a building breeze. It's a stunning night for a sail.
The wind's building so I swap the fresh coffee and cabin settee for the companionway to drop the boat onto a reach. The boat accelerates onto the plane, the heel pronounced but the keel is planted. Another club boat is half a mile ahead and I bag everything out to steer down to holler hello. The boat speed jumps, the rudders start singing, I'm trying to slow down but to no avail, barely enough time to trade some friendly insults as I pass them at 12 knots then it's clear water as far as you can see.
I end up in my favorite spot perched up in the windward pushpit, coffee in hand and just sit back to just enjoy the ride. The boat is more lively without the normal crew weight and is trucking along, wake like a ruler. I pass the next few hours alternating between watching the stars, and playing with damping settings on the autohelm. Open water all around, a fresh 18 knots of breeze and nothing to do. I make some dinner, catch up on Anarchy and download gribs before I lose coverage. The boat is warm, dry and comfortable and I'm happy just chilling below with periodic visits no further than the companionway to keep an eye out.

The AIS beeps, so with a fresh brew of coffee it's upstairs to slip past a trawler. The night is stunning, decks are dry so I stay up there and just drink it in, it's one of those moments where you have not a care in the world. The boat is so balanced it's indifferent to the human on board and I haven't had to touch the helm in hours. I turn the pilot off and flaff about playing with different sail trims to steer the boat around just for something to do. I'm doing nothing yet find myself exhilarated, I'm yahooing into the darkness from the sheer joy of just standing there.

That root of that exhilaration is simple, boats that are easy to sail and sail fast. They might not win the pickle dishes, but even a boat that swings a little to either side of the scale I find the same. It might be 'middle ground' to some, but hands down it has given me my some of most rewarding sailing experiences.

Best of luck in your search!
SB
Hi Shaggy, beautiful post! I wish I could express English like that because what your describe is what I experience and want to continue to experience now that I got over a big hump in my life.
I followed your post with your 12.50 and I had the money in the bank to send to Pogo for mine, when I got diagnosed with cancer and a chance in hell to make it pass 8-9months so I backed out and focused on getting the lurker under control.
Now again I have the $ but need to wait so freaking long..
I wish I could get a 12.50 or 44, but it does not look promising, so I and taking a look a few boats. Including an Open40 in Hobart.
But it keeps looking that the JPK 11.8 is the best compromise so far.
 

dreamingwet

Member
228
75
We just did a new bottom on a 41' boat that needed numerous section taken down to remove some failing barrier coat including the keel and rudder. This was not a neglected boat and had been well taken care of. Whole bottom job was $15k at a premium yard. A replacement bottom job ("run of the mill") quote from the same yard without the extra work was $7k for 3x sprayed layers. Maybe don't show up to the yard with a Ferrari and they won't bump up the quote so much.
Haha :) I am not a Ferrari guy but... there are a couple of Porsche in my garage in Spain.
 

Black Jack

Super Anarchist
If you got all these things squared away in Southern Europe and have a busy life which is greater than just sailing; where is the all this waffle coming from? Are you concerned about what others will think or think? Yeah go buy a JPK or other in vogue racer that you can soon. Life is short and this dream of yours could end tomorrow with some news that kills your plans.

5k a month is reasonable to keep a boat like this. that is a lot of scratch for a boat gets 4 days a month use.
 
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221J

Member
197
74
CT
This may boil down to what specific boat(s) are available rather than the perfect match. The fast end of the cruiser/racer market has slim pickings these days, more so in the US than Europe but even the inventory in Europe is short.

I think I'll stick up for the J122 briefly. I don't think it is at all tender upwind. I beat upwind for three hours two weekends ago with the speed over deck between 21 and 25 knots. The one crew sat under the dodger on the leeward bench. Both water tanks were empty. Had the main and jib trimmed fairly tight, no reef, a small bubble on the main and occasionally on the jib, heeled at 18-20 degrees. I could have pulled the outhaul tighter or dropped the main a bit if there was more wind. My boat has a carbon mast which is advertised as worth two crew on the rail. Maybe the OP's ride had the stock euro aluminum mast?

From recent experience, $30k/year might be a bit shy some years. Probably hinges on your sail inventory standards.
 

danstanford

Anarchist
680
180
Lake Ontario
Pogo 12.50, Pogo 36, JPK 1180, JPK 39FC, Italia 11.98, Neo 430, heck even the new Beneteau First 36 is a better match for the OP's request.
20-25% less than a J? That was your point as I remember it, correct? You also mentioned how these boats were better set up for short-handing, are there any specifics beyond the furling mains you mentioned?
 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
This may boil down to what specific boat(s) are available rather than the perfect match. The fast end of the cruiser/racer market has slim pickings these days, more so in the US than Europe but even the inventory in Europe is short.

I think I'll stick up for the J122 briefly. I don't think it is at all tender upwind. I beat upwind for three hours two weekends ago with the speed over deck between 21 and 25 knots. The one crew sat under the dodger on the leeward bench. Both water tanks were empty. Had the main and jib trimmed fairly tight, no reef, a small bubble on the main and occasionally on the jib, heeled at 18-20 degrees. I could have pulled the outhaul tighter or dropped the main a bit if there was more wind. My boat has a carbon mast which is advertised as worth two crew on the rail. Maybe the OP's ride had the stock euro aluminum mast?

From recent experience, $30k/year might be a bit shy some years. Probably hinges on your sail inventory standards.

I would also stick up for a J/120 or J/122. I think they are much better bang for the buck than the J/121. Competitive on handicap, relatively stiff (though sticking 8 guys on the rail upwind on the 120 is worth 0.5kts), manageable shorthanded if you use the smaller kites.
 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
20-25% less than a J? That was your point as I remember it, correct? You also mentioned how these boats were better set up for short-handing, are there any specifics beyond the furling mains you mentioned?
Yep, that was my point, comparing new vs. new at similar lengths, the European boats are better bang for the buck IMO. Especially right now with the euro down. These boats don't have furling mains, at least not factory. Furling headsails however are key, as are having most all control lines lead back to the helmsman. These are certainly mods you can do to most any boat, but the OP understands that having done it before with a Swan 42; its not free or necessarily easy depending on the original cockpit layout. If you're looking to spend close to $500k on a new boat, it would certainly be preferable to have it rigged to your spec from the factory!
 

dreamingwet

Member
228
75
@F18 Sailor, the J I sailed had the aluminum mast. I wish there was a 120-122 available, I would probably jump on it. If they did not have a carbon mast I could put a new one, do quite a few mods and still be @ less than my budget. The main thing I kind of not like on the 120 is the big overlapped jibs. IMHO these boats are more difficult to sail to their max when solo/double. If anyone has a pointer to a 120-122 please let me know.
 

The Dark Knight

Super Anarchist
7,258
1,728
Brisvegas

When saw this route my first thought was that you are an idiot to ride through Europe and not spend a hell of a lot of it in the alps. Then I read your earlier post.

When I lived in Europe I did many rides to Switzerland and did not care where I ended up as long as I had a fun ride.

I enjoyed Germany in fast cars but it too much hard work on the autobahns on a bike. Any sort of speed was too tiring and riding at a comfortable speed meant too many fast drivers passing you at speed. A couple of times I put the bike on a train to get through Germany.
 

danstanford

Anarchist
680
180
Lake Ontario
Yep, that was my point, comparing new vs. new at similar lengths, the European boats are better bang for the buck IMO. Especially right now with the euro down. These boats don't have furling mains, at least not factory. Furling headsails however are key, as are having most all control lines lead back to the helmsman. These are certainly mods you can do to most any boat, but the OP understands that having done it before with a Swan 42; its not free or necessarily easy depending on the original cockpit layout. If you're looking to spend close to $500k on a new boat, it would certainly be preferable to have it rigged to your spec from the factory!
Certainly J boats, and the B-36 First you mentioned have furling or hanked jib set-ups as an option when ordering. I suspect every boat in this category are the same.
Are you certain of your 20-25% higher price for the J's than the competitors? I actually have priced a J/111 and the First B-36 and they are very close in price here in Canada.
 

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