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New mainsail - any basic guidance?
- Thread starter Jud - s/v Sputnik
- Start date
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Amati
Guest
The hardest thing to do is let a sailmaker know they didn’t do what you thought you told them to do. And if the sail gets to you just before your deadline (like a cruise) it even gets more entertaining. Don’t rid yourself of existing sails until after you get the new ones. And sails take way too long to get.
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I would recommend to you a cross cut woven polyester sail. You should also check what type of woven polyester your sailmaker has quoted to you. Our preferred cloth to supply is Contender Fibrecon Pro, it uses a finer yarn which produces a tighter weave. It also has its resin impregnated and not surface coated which should make your sail last longer. Stay away from DP Cbreeze which is the opposite to what I just described. I recommend full battens in the mainsail, the reduced flogging will also make your sails go further in the long run. I would also mount it on Ronstan Ballslide cars which don’t require a track. Or I would use the Rutgerson batten cars
Rain Man
Super Anarchist
My wife will not let me put the old main back on the boat, nor do I want to. It is truly done, 3 of the 4 partial battens are missing, and it looks like an old stained rag. If the new one doesn't arrive I think we'll just do cruising weekends with the headsail, which is in ok condition.
The new one is a cross-cut dacron with full battens, maxed out roach and Allslip slides. Cloth is Bainbridge Strong Fill SPX 855 8.3oz. There was a limited range of cloth available for spring delivery - I was told that if I upgraded to a higher level of cloth the sail might not arrive until much later. For example, Marblehead wasn't available. Fingers crossed.
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I guess everybody has a different opinion, but I've found C-Breeze to be equivalent to Fibercon AP, but with a better resin - which is impregnated. And the same density as every other dacron except, - Fibercon Pro and Marblehead which are the two finer yarn tight weave dacrons. They give better shape holding, but reduced UV resistance, burst and tear strength. So it depends on what sort of sailing you are doing.
SPX strong fill is high aspect dacron as mentioned above.
OCS
Member
I am another C Breeze fan, a good silver plus cloth! Suitable for a lot of applications.
This is one of my faves, appears to my trained eye to be a sail that utilises the lighter fabric in the higher load areas.
Concept is right but back the front.
This is one of my faves, appears to my trained eye to be a sail that utilises the lighter fabric in the higher load areas.
Concept is right but back the front.
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Always interested to hear other people’s opinions and experiences. We’ve built up quite a large database of our Oyster customers cruising round the world and when we’ve considered everything we arrive at the Fibrecon Pro, it’s not cheap but these things never are! My recent experience of C Breeze was a family member buying some sails from another sailmaker built in C Breeze and either something wasn’t specced right or the design was wrong but the stretch in 12kts of wind was incredible and the Genoa had uncontrollable leech flutter. I can only offer my own 2 cents!
cianclarke
Member
Lots of shitting on Precision, anybody with experience of the other offshore lofts, Rolly Tasker or Far East?
I've had some very tempting quotes for a genoa from both.
I did the rounds last season in New England, here were the numbers FWIW:
Important to note my `regular, mid, fancy` summaries don't even remotely compare like-with-like - reefs, battens may differ quote to quote.
I've since gotten some serviceable used sails from a sister ship, but still in the market for something.
I've had some very tempting quotes for a genoa from both.
I did the rounds last season in New England, here were the numbers FWIW:
Important to note my `regular, mid, fancy` summaries don't even remotely compare like-with-like - reefs, battens may differ quote to quote.
I've since gotten some serviceable used sails from a sister ship, but still in the market for something.
CriticalPath
Anarchist
cianclarke, you are the poster child for every sailmaker's wet dream.
You "did the rounds" for two sails with 6 different lofts, priced 25 sails with a range in value of over 4x from least to most expensive, then bought "serviceable used sails" instead.
And now you're looking for a different sail and have "tempting quotes" from two more lofts that weren't even part of last year's "rounds"?
I sure hope any sailmakers on SA who're based in New England or on the interwebs take note of the OP's name and respond accordingly next time they receive a request from this guy.
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cianclarke
Member
I've done business with two of the on-shore lofts listed here in the past, and will absolutely be using one of them again - speaking of which, if any of them take issue with me sharing my quotes in the hope it helps others, I'll gladly redact.
I can't help but feel it's more transparency we need in the industry, not less - but hey, any other bitter sailmakers, hit me up.
Meanwhile, I'll make no apologies for shopping around. I'm still in the market for new sails - just managed to defer the purchase by a year or two. If I can get a similar product, made in the same country as some brand name sails, for 50% of the price, I'm game. If it's a shitty product, not so much.
TwoLegged
Super Anarchist
- 5,894
- 2,262
Cian, I have two observations:
- the 4:1 ratio between cheapest and most expensive is alarming. There needs to to be some huge difference in usability an/or performance to justify the high-end.
- All the quotes seem to me to be from "big name" makers. Why not try some small local lofts?
El Borracho
Barkeeper’s Friend
I bought a Dacron cruise main for the SC50 a few years ago from Doyle. Made in HK by China Sail Factory as I recall ... certainly from HK/China. There was a tiny miscommunication because of my remoteness in the Philippines that they made it exactly to my P/E measurements instead of adjusting for stretch like a sailmaker would if one had visited the boat. No big deal. Nothing that a bit of over-hoist and the cunningham cannot adjust for. Sail is otherwise perfect and has proven very durable. 3+2 batten trick. Generic paneled. Never can be sure what cloth was actually used but it is certainly of top quality. Thrashed all the way across the Pacific and still 'good'. Thanks to the miracle that is Philippine commerce it arrived duty free. So considerable savings.
From our experience Fibercon Pro is nice, and has a lot more UV resistance than Marblehead if your comparing the two dense weave options. C-Breeze has been working well for us. Maybe the other sailmaker was using something else or some seconds cloth. A good friend of mine was upwind sail designer for one of the big lofts in the US back in the 90's. He told me once they started their own dacron stretch testing, and started finding and rejecting bad rolls, the bad rolls stopped coming... So the cloth companies knew which ones weren't up to spec. Later he asked what happens to all these rolls of bad dacron, and the answer was they are sent far far away
It is very hard to compare because they are all quoting different material. The mail order guys quote cheaper dacron. For example the catalog price of Fastnet 8.88 is half the price of the 390 SF that UK is quoting. And the material is the biggest part of the cost of the sail. So your UK Regular is equivalent to the Precision fancy, as a good cross cut dacron is actually less likely to distort over time compared to a cheap radial dacron...
View from the back
Member
cianclarke
Member
Sounds like if ordering offshore, you can't really rely on the sailmakers advice - you've really got to do your own research. I really have no idea of the difference between Fastnet 8.88 and 390 SF - but with that in mind, it certainly substantially closes the price gap!
1. It's a pretty jarring cost differential for sure - but as the above poster pointed out, I'm not really comparing like with like, and my arbitrary labels are alas just that.
I think breaking out the Bainbridge catalog & learning what the materials are would be a good next step to really break down the comparison.
2. In the past, when I reached out to smaller local lofts for service they turned out to be brokers for offshore lofts who weren't able to actually do any service - hence reaching out to the larger ones. I'd love to find a good smaller local loft that can be more price competitive, though
Did I though? How long does it take to prepare a quote from a form filled out on the website? No consultation, just some concise specs turned into a PDF quote. I'll hazard a guess at how it goes:
I, J, P and E into a spreadsheet to calculate sail area for both sails in different materials, giving a base price.
Scale the cost for battens & reef points based on E and P.
Copy & paste the final numbers into a template word doc, along with a pretty pic of the boat from google image search, export as a PDF.
20 mins - tops? Why are there even humans in the loop at this early stage - a software savvy loft should be able to generate a quote based on a spec lookup with a few clicks. First one to put a quote feature on their website gets my admiration.
It's very possible I'm way off the mark here - and I'd love to hear if this is the case. If there was some consultation & advice involved (where an on-shore loft will excel), I'm sure that's a different story - but there wasn't.
So, repeat this exercise for 3 offshore lofts, 3 onshore, one of which is going to get the business (albeit not in 2020) - and I'm struggling to come up with much sympathy here.
Only in the marine industry would getting multiple quotes for a 4-to-5 figure purchase be so scandalous. Seems like there's a fair share of sailmakers who have gotten by for years with customers who show up with a blank check looking for the works, and the mere suggestion that us mere mortals who have a budget & want to see who can provide the best value quote seems to really trigger some folk.
Throw in the mere suggestion that an offshore loft might be a viable option, and you've really stirred the pot.
I'll reiterate what I said earlier - I'd love to see a bit more transparency on what things cost across the industry. If that winds up in the best interest of consumers rather than MajorSailLoft Inc? Too bad.
penumbra
Member
Sailmakers hate @cianclarke's spreadsheet. They want someone to try the latest and greatest, at the highest margin so they can spend their time with them. It's not a negative story, it's a matter of service.
I've owned many Rolly sails on cheaper boats. If you know what you want/need, know how to ask the technical questions and not bother them too much, everyone wins.
Precision offers the promise to access the sail designers themselves and upgrade over Rolly. The top lofts don't even do that for the basic buyers. I don't know their work well enough, but the structure of the business proposition is far more transparent than you're going to get with a local guy who doesn't care that much. Too often with sailmakers, you roll the dice that it will fit and actually match the boat. Precision at least tries to level the field.
I shopped for a genoa for my '88 Tartan 34-2 and was recommended to speak with a venerable WLIS sailmaker. His quote was 3x the average and when I politely replied that his number was out of my budget, I got this amazing and delightful response (copied directly from the 2014 email):
Venerable sailmaker: I have no idea who the "others" you refer to are but I would leave you with the following as food for thought. "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."
Bold is mine.
For our latest boat (Sweden 42), I wanted a proper damn main. I looked at 4 lofts, made the spreadsheet, annoyed them all and picked one I felt would work out. It wasn't cheap, but I didn't pick the most expensive and jesus is that the best sail I've ever owned. At the end of the day, sails are still a bespoke product. You can get a good one or a bad one and forecasting it with a given loft is damn near impossible.
I've owned many Rolly sails on cheaper boats. If you know what you want/need, know how to ask the technical questions and not bother them too much, everyone wins.
Precision offers the promise to access the sail designers themselves and upgrade over Rolly. The top lofts don't even do that for the basic buyers. I don't know their work well enough, but the structure of the business proposition is far more transparent than you're going to get with a local guy who doesn't care that much. Too often with sailmakers, you roll the dice that it will fit and actually match the boat. Precision at least tries to level the field.
I shopped for a genoa for my '88 Tartan 34-2 and was recommended to speak with a venerable WLIS sailmaker. His quote was 3x the average and when I politely replied that his number was out of my budget, I got this amazing and delightful response (copied directly from the 2014 email):
Venerable sailmaker: I have no idea who the "others" you refer to are but I would leave you with the following as food for thought. "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."
Bold is mine.
For our latest boat (Sweden 42), I wanted a proper damn main. I looked at 4 lofts, made the spreadsheet, annoyed them all and picked one I felt would work out. It wasn't cheap, but I didn't pick the most expensive and jesus is that the best sail I've ever owned. At the end of the day, sails are still a bespoke product. You can get a good one or a bad one and forecasting it with a given loft is damn near impossible.
Yeah, he got 6 competing quotes on a custom product. How awful. Sure he got a lot of options that vary wildly, more than needed. But he did some homework.
But you're in the business of selling sails. Some people buy on price, some buy on service, quality, whatever. But your job is to sell sails. Why is it "wasting your time" to give out a price to a potential customer.
Fah Kiew Tu
Curmudgeon, First Rank
Want to see things go really pear-shaped?
Ask for a quote on a couple of Chinese lug rig sails...
FKT
Rain Man
Super Anarchist
I did appreciate being able to speak directly to the sail designer on the phone on several occasions, and look at a 2-D rendering of the sail overlaid on the rig and backstay. We went back and forth on a few items. I think we arrived at the right design and materials in the end. It is the build that worries me.
I can't help but wonder which loft they are using to actually build the sails. I'm assuming they come from somewhere in Asia, which is common for all sailmakers these days. Anybody know? I didn't bother asking.
This is a cruising boat, and this does not need to be a fantastic sail, it just needs to be a decent sail. We bought what should be a fantastic sail for our SC 27 and paid almost double what the mainsail is costing for my cruiser.
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