new stuff in the a-class

[NED 27]

You can leave the boards in the boat as they are pulled close to the hull, you just put your boat on the trolley as you always did. That's why the British proposed a depth in which the boat must float.

The L-board configuration works on beach cats as proven by Hydros and others. The downside is that you have to pull up the windward board. That makes tacking and especially gybing more difficult. You cannot simply push the boards down as the boards create a lot of lift.

If we want to have the L-boards in the class we have to found a solution and keep it simple.

Keeping the L-boards at windward down will never get you competitive.

The fun of a development class is that some people do the development and the others reap the benefits when it has become competitive.

Flying is the future and may lead in the end to simpler and faster boats. The twoman boats will not need gennakers any longer.

The other downside is the lack of righting moment in an A-class. This asks for highly efficient foils (thin and high aspect ration) which is not possible witin the 1,50m rule. If twoman boats start foiling and we as A-class do not keep up we will get obsolete as a class. It is already a shame that we got the daggerboard rules in the first place.

The current turmoil is bad as there are hardly any buyers at the moment, all people wait to see what happens with the rules. The class is still small and with a new generation of boats we can expand asa class. We need new sailor into the class to be a healthy class. The class needs to be attractive for both youngsters and 40 plus sailors with little time but money to spend.

The people with concerns (the conservatives) can look back and see how well the class absorbed new innovations (carbon masts, curved foils, nomex boats, upside down hulls, square tops etc). All developments have led to faster and pretty simple boats which are easier to sail in strong winds than before.

The best rule in A-class is the one equipment rule, that has led to allround boats.

Foiling looks a revolution but if you look back the whole process is just an evolution, just small steps forward and this is another step. Going from C-boards to J-boats is a small step., and once you can fly on J-boards, further foiling is just simply the next step.

Though we still have to make it work, in the mean time I keep foiling on my J-boards Is (really WOW)

 

[david r]

Question about the dolly- Do T or L daggerboard foils interfere with the dolly since those usually go under the daggerboard trunks?

my opinion is that the A class is already optimized for the lighter side of sailing and the most people in usa that race them don't race in foiling conditions all that much.
perhaps there could be an a and b division of the class like 18square did?

or, someone should just make a single handed foiling cat that only races in foiling conditions (wind minimum). Maybe between 14 and 17 feet. 100-200 pounds. Designed with keeping costs reasonable in mind. The carbon and the term reasonable costs don't really go together, but there are levels.

The A's have their niche, leave it alone…..From my imaginary perspective of a sailor that likes to buzz around in 8knts of wind on their speedy cat. My goal is to sail a cat comfortably, but fast when the windsurfers are sailing with 4.5 meter sails. The H18 and my 3 meter cat are both a little too crazy for that as rigged. i think there is hope for the 3meter cat with some more fine tuning. That will take more carbon….

 

[AClass USA 230]

Question about the dolly- Do T or L daggerboard foils interfere with the dolly since those usually go under the daggerboard trunks?

my opinion is that the A class is already optimized for the lighter side of sailing and the most people in usa that race them don't race in foiling conditions all that much.

perhaps there could be an a and b division of the class like 18square did?

or, someone should just make a single handed foiling cat that only races in foiling conditions (wind minimum). Maybe between 14 and 17 feet. 100-200 pounds. Designed with keeping costs reasonable in mind. The carbon and the term reasonable costs don't really go together, but there are levels.

The A's have their niche, leave it alone…..From my imaginary perspective of a sailor that likes to buzz around in 8knts of wind on their speedy cat. My goal is to sail a cat comfortably, but fast when the windsurfers are sailing with 4.5 meter sails. The H18 and my 3 meter cat are both a little too crazy for that as rigged. i think there is hope for the 3meter cat with some more fine tuning. That will take more carbon….

A modern A-Class with any of the current flavors of curved daggerboards (C, J, or S) combined with rudder winglets is a very fun and fast boat to sail in 3-22 knots of wind. 22 knots of wind is our current top limit for racing and some in the class believe it can be increased to 25 knots with the recent foil development and the increased control that is the result. Your imaginary perspective as stated above is in reality imaginary. There are not many classes that are as fun and accessible as the A-class for any sailor craving to get into cutting edge high performance sailing especially if they live in areas where they experience more breeze strength under 10 knots as they do over 10 knots (which is a lot of North America).

Regarding some of the comments above, I think NED 27 is very accurate in stating that you have to be top of the fleet competitive upwind to win an A-Class championship and so far the C and J foils seem to offer the best balance of all around performance and user friendliness when combined with some form of rudder winglets. It will remain to be seen if a variation of an L foil can be successful if the class adopts the rule change proposed by the BACCA. That rule change would certainly make our class even more interesting and exciting for the next few years. I believe those who are pronouncing that high performance catamaran classes who don't start foiling are going to die needs to tell that to the F-18 sailors. They just finished a 164 boat world championship with every boat having straight daggerboards, all the boats weighing nearly 400 lbs, and no plans at all to lose weight or to go to curved foils. They are happy with their class as it is and just keep growing.

 

[ita 16]

make the class A fly is a very big error, and I do not say this order to do good to my company but because I'm already flying well with a small Acat, I did a lot of testing, I completely understood the behavior of the boat and the result is that a class A can never be like a moth in flight, perhaps in the future you will succeed in this objective but will not be cheap and easy to use. it is too early for this step, we did not see boat single head fly well as f18 foil, and in any case all the flying cat have not been shown to be able to fly always and in all conditions of wind-wave. the class A flying of the future will be very different from the current ones for this reason all the old boats will be obsolete and not updatable.
being a boy sea I learned a lot from the old sailors, and the first question is to be respected safety at sea, there is no security racing at 20-30 knots of speed on a boat that forces you to do the trajectories but not vice versa. is too early to decide, more time is needed for good results and assessed.
my 2 cent
regards Michele

 

[barney]

I believe those who are pronouncing that high performance catamaran classes who don't start foiling are going to die needs to tell that to the F-18 sailors. They just finished a 164 boat world championship with every boat having straight daggerboards, all the boats weighing nearly 400 lbs, and no plans at all to lose weight or to go to curved foils. They are happy with their class as it is and just keep growing.

I agree. Moths are foiling for almost a decade, and it goes to show that not everybody is interested in foiling. Except for the lowrider moths, not too many high performance dinghy classes have died.

 

[SimonN]

There really is a lot of bullshit talked about foiling boats, mainly by people who don't actually sail them. However, if you piece together what is being said by people who sail both A's and moths, on here and elsewhere, you get a real picture of what is going on.



With cats, just like we have seen in monohulls, foiling is not going to take over. The 2 most popular classes (F18 and Hobie 16) will never have foiling. Foiling is likely to be confined to one or 2 classes and these classes will not dominate the world of cat sailing.



IMO, for reasons already given above, I believe that it is unlikely that we will see a successful class of single hander foiling cats. As NED27 points out, it is unlikely that a cat with 2 dagger boards down will be competitive and the issues with raising and lowering while tacking and gybing are probably never going to be overcome in a single hander. I do disagree with NED27 in as far as I believe that the lowering of the board is far easier than the raising, but that's another discussion.



As for the current rules, I personally think it is a big mistake to go with the rule change as proposed by Chris, for 2 reasons. First, it simply isn't needed. With a bit of thought, it is possible to come up with a way of inserting L boards from the top. I have seen a design done by a group of AC people that does exactly that, but won't be trying it because of the second reason why this is the wrong rule change, namely that as I said above, L foils is likely to need the windward board to be raised which will simply lose too much time. Over the length of courses we sail and the number of tacks and gybes you need to do, it just isn't going to happen.



However, I am beginning to wonder whether the 1.5m rule is actually the one that needs to be changed. We are already seeing that it isn't creating the restrictions hoped for and that overall, I suspect we will see a boat that is a lot nicer to sail of we get rid of the rule. I don't think it will lead to an all foiling boat, but we are likely to see boats that are easier to sail downwind in breeze without losing upwind performance.



As for the retro fit argument, the issue isn't over whether its worth retrofitting to an existing platform. The big problem is that for most boats that you would consider doing it to, you also need to replace the mast and rudders (at very least), plus the sail to go with the mast. By the time you getting all that sorted, it adds $8-10k to the cost.



However, if you have the right rig already, and you have anything above basic diy skills, I believe that it is worth updating the right platforms. Starting with the right platform is important. By the time I have finished with my platform, I will have spent about $3250 on foils, new and moved front beam, winglets on rudders etc. and will have a boat that is pretty close to a Nikita. If you take the value of the original platform of, say, $10,000, I would argue I have saved $10,000 on the cost of a Nikita. While I accept that a Nikita would be a better/stronger/stiffer platform, I am not sure the difference would be enough to change somebody from being a winner to an also ran.

 

[Bang Zoom]

However, I am beginning to wonder whether the 1.5m rule is actually the one that needs to be changed. We are already seeing that it isn't creating the restrictions hoped for and that overall, I suspect we will see a boat that is a lot nicer to sail of we get rid of the rule. I don't think it will lead to an all foiling boat, but we are likely to see boats that are easier to sail downwind in breeze without losing upwind performance.

Simon, please elaborate on the above, thanks.

 

[Fireball]

If L boards are slower than C or J boards then people don't have to use them. If people can insert L boards from the top and they want to use L boards then they can go ahead and do this.

If foiling is slower than non-foiling then people don't have to foil.

None of this requires any rules. If the A class hadn't introduced the 1.5m restriction then they wouldn't have the current situation with designers trying to work around the rules by moving the daggerboard cases outboard and trying to foil using lift from the rudder foils.

The A class rules are mostly very simple with length, beam, minimun weight and maximum sail area and a requirement to be a catamaran. They don't need constant updating, whereas the rules about the hull appendages are a topic of much discussion and controversy.

They also cause uncertainty, which, as the poster from DNA mentioned, can be bad for business.

IMHO the class would be in a better situation if they had kept the rules simple and let the designers work out what is fastest. It's not too late to take this approach.

 

[Dougy the gun]

Do you sail a class fireball?

 

[Fireball]

Do you sail a class fireball?

Yes Dougy - I've got an old Mark IV.

I've done some work on the rig and I'd like to upgrade the platform, but I find it very confusing with all these boats trying to foil and having problems in light air, but being quick downwind in breeze. Some of the results overseas don't really relate much to Sydney where the seabreezes are pretty reliable.

The rules seems to be a key factor here and it would be great if they can sort it out one way or the other. I don't particularly want to buy a better boat and then have it be affected by some rule changes in the near future.

I've done some foiling in skiffs and I'd love to have a go at foiling in a A class.

 

[Tcatman]

IMHO the class would be in a better situation if they had kept the rules simple and let the designers work out what is fastest. It's not too late to take this approach.

This is a bit of a game of musical chairs... Can you sell your existing non flying boat into a market of racers.... otherwise the boat will be obsolete and valued only by Rec sailors at substantial discount. The rush to the exits could be spectacular. This is controlled by the class boat rules and the culture and managment of the Class of sailors.

I suspect that what most sailors want is a viable racing class at the World, National, Regional and Club Level and equally important sailing boats that are a true pleasure to sail. Looking at just one extreme is short sighted.

The rule change was sold as preventing foiling... yet keeping with the spirit of a devlopment class resulting in boats that were true pleasures to sail in growing fleets. The results are what they are...

I was never sure WHY the A class thought that flying boats were bad for the class... What was it about flying that they opposed. The class would still focus on trimming one sail and racing strategy and tactics. i concluded at the time, that since the Moths were extremely athletic, hard to sail, and manage on the beach and limited in their crew weight range and windspeed requirements.. the A class though this was a bad deal. They had a great boat and it was just hard to sail very fast.... Moreover, they could attract and keep Masters and Grandmasters in the game along with a variety of sailor weights and the opportunity existed to build clubs, regional, national and international sailing.

So, some boats foil a bit now and it is very dicey... the rule does not appear able to control foiling much longer.... AND, the lifiting foils and new rudders make the very nice boat even nicer to sail..... so now what?

I suspect that unless the class has a rule that makes for boats that are absolute pleasures to sail... they are screwed... So a bad flying A cat is not a soluiton... better to have a great flying A cat that is a dream to sail. The second part of the equation is about racing, the turnout numbers at races and controlling the economics for all of the class members. When the music stops in this game of musical chairs and everyone rushes to the exits at the same time the class will change quickly.

My interest is a great sailing boat that has club and regional sailing opportunities. I predict that this will mean a return to the original rules, a new generation of flying A class boats for the rock stars and handicap scoring system for the mutliple generations of A class on the water. My hope for such an outcome was stoked by seeing the soring of the recent Aussie NA's. . I suspect I am in the minority on both counts!

Sailboat racing is about two things... the boat and the class managment. Screw up either one and you are a member of the dead boat society.

 

[kbaack]

What about a combination surface piercing and incidence controllable foil. Say a normal curved foil with the slider attached to a wand near the beam. Maybe have a bit tighter radius than normal, to develop as much lift as possible. You'd get the simplicity of the curved foil with the more sensitive ride height adjustment of the wand controlled foil. Best of both worlds?

 

[erikM]

When I read these posts about the A class, I clearly see that there are 2 types of sailors: the developers and the racers.

I fully understand how somebody could be passionate about making an A class fly and all the fun that goes with it.

However the racer will object that there is no point in winning a race because his boat is just faster than the others. Racing is about sailing technics and tactics. The present A class is already a very fast boat on which in my view, sailing technics prevail tactics (at least for the mid-fleeter).

The developers are bothered by the present class rules that limit their creativity and the racers are bothered by the continuous innovations that make the boat expensive and regularly obsolete.

Why not create 2 types of events:

One for the developers (original class rules, 500 m speed tests with 25 knots of wind, foils, wing sails, etc…)

One for the racers with class rules frozen where they are now.

 

[ita 16]

When I read these posts about the A class, I clearly see that there are 2 types of sailors: the developers and the racers.

I fully understand how somebody could be passionate about making an A class fly and all the fun that goes with it.

However the racer will object that there is no point in winning a race because his boat is just faster than the others. Racing is about sailing technics and tactics. The present A class is already a very fast boat on which in my view, sailing technics prevail tactics (at least for the mid-fleeter).

The developers are bothered by the present class rules that limit their creativity and the racers are bothered by the continuous innovations that make the boat expensive and regularly obsolete.

Why not create 2 types of events:

One for the developers (original class rules, 500 m speed tests with 25 knots of wind, foils, wing sails, etc…)

One for the racers with class rules frozen where they are now.

+1

 

[FishAintBiting]

When I read these posts about the A class, I clearly see that there are 2 types of sailors: the developers and the racers.

I fully understand how somebody could be passionate about making an A class fly and all the fun that goes with it.

However the racer will object that there is no point in winning a race because his boat is just faster than the others. Racing is about sailing technics and tactics. The present A class is already a very fast boat on which in my view, sailing technics prevail tactics (at least for the mid-fleeter).

The developers are bothered by the present class rules that limit their creativity and the racers are bothered by the continuous innovations that make the boat expensive and regularly obsolete.

Why not create 2 types of events:

One for the developers (original class rules, 500 m speed tests with 25 knots of wind, foils, wing sails, etc…)

One for the racers with class rules frozen where they are now.

It puzzles me why so many people want to change the rules, in this instance so the boats are faster. If you want to go fast hop on a Moth, and there might be boats that are faster again. Racing typically is about having competition, and in this day if it requires deep pockets then the numbers reduce (take 14'ers for example)

You want something different then start another class, please do NOT go about changing an existing one that seems to be doing well.

Happy sailing

Fish

 

[engineer]

Lots of opinions, nice to see some opinions from A cat sailors!!

Seems foiling is obsessive, like "must foil at all cost" type obsessive. i don't know why, its like they hust have to get it up!!!. I also think the A cat tech committee have done a good job, keeping the boats development blending nicely so it wasn't as big a "gap" as the moths had between foilers and sea huggers. It would seem that we have reached a break point where the A's are going to be free of the sea downwind, so it could be time to allow lifting foils, but will they be faster ON ALL POINTS of sail?? who knows.... It would certainly be hard work on a single handed vessel stuffing around with your foils through tacks, but there is always a way. and it must be a transition, as we have had until now.

the A cat fleet has attracted a variety of sailors and it would seem that most of the folks who sail in the class would like to foil. I can't do a brand new A cat at present because my stuation dictates that my finances be directed elsewhere, but be assured, i cant do $40K AUS for a boat that will be obselete in 2 seasons if A cats keep going as they are. so development is getting expensive, driven by the foiling obsession

Do we

1) change the rules to allow fully foling boats and hope there isn't a mass exodus due to rising prices putting a nice class out of reach of "the mob"

2) stiffle development and hope there isn't a mass exodus due to other classes offering more cutting edge boats

3) ask the Tornado sailors (how many are still out there) to try lifting foils to see if that makes a massive shift back to their class!!! ;-)

It is going to be an interesting time in A class, I just hope we don't lose too many which ever way it goes....

 

[Multiplex]

Here is the proposed rule change:

Proposed Change to Rule 8.2

Chris Field has suggested a change to Rule 8.2

The current rule 8.2 states -

Movable and retractable hull appendages shall be inserted from the top or be capable of being fully retractable into the hull.

The BACCA are submitting a proposal to the IACA to replace this rule and replace it with the following;

The boat must float in 300mm of water (or words to this effect)

At present we have a-cats foiling during racing. This is a fact however, it is only possible with some rather expensive daggerboards designed to exploit the existing rule. We believe foiling this is the future of the sport and should be made as easy and cheap as possible and believe the above rule change will make this possible.

The intention is 4 fold:

1. to allow an elegant solution to enable foiling, rather than the complex and inefficient methods builders are coming up with at present, to get around the rules.

2. potentially enable old hull designs to become competitive again at a low cost. for example the more time the hulls are out of the water during a race, the less relevant the hull shape becomes.

3. Allow racing competitive A-Classes at a cheaper cost and encouraging "home-builds" once again (I am thinking here of encouraging youth sailors into the class who lack the money to enter at present).

4. The class is a development class and this fact should not be hindered.

The reason for inserting the last sentance: the boat must float in 300mm of water (or words to this effect) is so that we can easily launch and land out boats in the way we do at present, safely, using trolleys. If the class allows us to have fixed foils at the bottom of our boat this will become an issue, much like the Moth class.

This may also close the door on any potential new designed single handed foiling Cat class developing as a rival.

It is the BACCA Committee's recommendation that you vote YES to this proposal, however, as usual, the decision is yours! This proposal has the support of several other A Cat Class associations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a bit surprised to see Chris Field take this action for a rule change seemingly without much discussion from class members and without input from the technical committee. Has the technical committee examined this rule change and do they have an opinion?

IMHO if any rule regarding foiling should to be changed, it would be to reduce the1.5 meter width of the foil exclusion zone. But only after much discussion and consideration.

A-cats have evolved from beach cats which have been traditionally launched from the beach. Insert from below daggerbards would prevent beaching A-cats and would add complexity during launching that may not be desirable. I can't imagine trying to launch through large surf and inserting daggers from below by myself. I am in favor of keeping the insert from above rule to preserve simplicity and maintain continuity with present boats. I believe SHC expressed a similar opinion a few months back.

Opinions?

The proposal was voted on by the BACCA members and was considerably in favour, by some margin.

The proposed change was actually sent to the technical committee for them to agree the actual wording taking into consideration what we hoped to achieve - allow foiling possibilities without complex shaped boards and allowing older boats to be fitted with these making them competitive again.

I wonder how many here have actually sailed an A cat that can actually foil properly? Witness Misha's S board boat in Barcelona. Chris Field tried it on the rest day and was stunned how easily it came up and how stable it was when there. From that day he was totally converted.

He didn't need to pull up windward boards or have new masts and sails, he just had a clever innovative design solution, which may be the way and shape to go forward. But allowing boards to be fitted from below would result in simpler shapes as I surmise that some of the shape is as a result of rule 8.2 compliance.

This is a development class when all said and done, so we should let it develop in manageable stages IMHO. The boats will never foil upwind - too much slippage when up on the foils - watch the the AC72's. I know they pull up a board, but those are asymmetric in section and were even when on the AC45, plus they have the manpower to cope with that and designed it accordingly.

Just watch ETNZ on the bare away and see them come up on the foils, it looks awsome - now why would you not want to do that on your toys if it can be done?

G

 

[piv]

Here is my 2 cents worth. The smaller the boat, the easier the development. eg Sailboards have had hundreds of thousands of development cycles, wheras something like ORMA60 trimarans, less than a hundred (maybe twenty really), AC 72 just two working. We could prototype a set of foils for a Moth in a couple of days for a few hundred dollars of materials, compared to, for a 12m catamaran, it took weeks and tens of thousands of $ of materials. The A class size cat is a good development class to play with because it is small. Yes $40k is alot, but a lot less than $10m or $100m. But the rules are restrictive to foil development. The same is true of Moths. Entire families of foil development were killed by the Moth rules. Who knows what might have evolved. But given time and development, a good solution within the rules did evolve. I suggest not changing the A class rules. But anyone who wants to try something should give it a go. If you work with the general A class rules (sail area, beam, length, one set of gear), and come up with something that can beat an A cat around any course in any conditions, then you are onto a good thing, a real good thing. Tell us what rules you broke, if any, in the process. I would call it an A+ (or maybe its an A-). Also when hull or foil changes radically change the performance of a boat, then the rig will change to optimise for the new performance, so there is no such thing as a cheap upgrade. My guess is a good foiling A+ would have good pitch stability and this would then allow wing rigs and so really you will be looking at a cat with foils and a slotted solid wing rig. This is practical on a cat. On a Moth its ridiculous. The foiling cat should be much nicer to sail (less pitching, less nose diving, smooth ride, less spray) but might be terrifyingly fast and dangerous to race in a fleet, but I am sure everyone will get used to it.

 

[david r]

please let me know if it is inappropriate for me to comment on this subject since the last time i saw an A cat was in the late 60s/early70's. There were a couple around FL that i used to race on portsmouth on the H14 before there were enough Hobies for a class. It took 2 of us keiki to make 150lbs-min. weight.
I am curious how/when the A class wind limit rule was passed. Seems like the Aussies and Dutch would have been against it.
Cat sailing must have been different decades ago……There have been tons of Hobie worlds/nats sailed in 25knots. Here is an example of one that i raced in as a teenage skipper, got 7th; In the early 70's there was a hurricane situation at the H16 nationals in Key Biscayne and the first day was cancelled because the track showed it passing over Miami. It didn't and the race was on. Every heat was a honker during the whole regatta. No one was trying to cancel the races. Most sailors aren't that good at high wind sailing and the top ten were always the same, in pretty much the same order, but it was super fun.
Even the Tornado has a wind limit now. At the T Europeans in Heyers, early 70's, One heat was started with a Mistral on the way. My dad and i headed for the beach before the start, but Reg White and Ian Frasier were still battling it out until the heat was abandoned after the full strength of the mistral hit. Also A cats used to win Texel, now i don't see them in the results. I am guessing the majority of A voters don't like sailing in strong winds.
So the A, B, and C classes are still around. The A has a history and has big worlds championships. All the best wishes on the future of the A class. I watch with great interest as catamaran hydro foiling gets developed, and i hope to sail such a boat one day.
Also i change my outsider's comment of leave the class rules alone to what ever works for you.
ps. foiling will shurly bring wings. i wonder if a self tending jib and a slightly shorter mast will come into play?

 

[fsmith6767]

Wind limit came into existence in 1988 in the A Cat Fleet.