new stuff in the a-class

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
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Cocoa Beach, FL
The cassette system that I came up with would definitely be able to be installed "from the top"-no question about it. The downside, according to a cat manufacturer I've shown it to, is that there could be problems due to the proximity of the foil to the side of the boat. But there may be solutions to that as well.
Doug

If it is "install from the top", why do the arrows point sideways? And if you are installing it from the top, surely the "L" gets in the way. You have to bring it in sideways until the "L" is under the boat. And that means it isn't inserted from the top.

And the real issue is not to do with the proximity of the board to the side of the boat as that can be sorted out through design,. The real issue is how you build something like that strong enough to take the loads. Even in a light class like the A, the loads become pretty high - you have the weight of the boat and crew, the side loads of the c/b part working to stop sideways slip and then there is the lift element. When you have a conventional case, you brace it with bulkheads and the top and bottom work life a T section where they join the hull and the deck. Even then, you need extra reinforcement around that area and if you start foiling, you will need more. So how do you make this removable case strong enough. You cannot bolt it through the middle, or else the board won't go up and down so you have only the edges to secure it. You will need a very big flange at the top to stop the whole thing exploding and something at the bottom as well. To give you some idea of the loads, it completely smashed my top slider that was made of 10mm thick PTFE and had thickness of about 70mm either side of the daggerboard hole. I tried to break the other one through leverage with a crow bar and couldn't.
The lines on the sketch are just part of the illustration. With the boards partially down in the cassette the case is brought over and slides straight down until it locks. According to my cat manufacturer friend there is no structural problem-and I agree with him. I've built many foils and cases for full size boats and this is somewhat unique but structurally it is fairly simple. Again, he said that in experimental boards in a couple of classes with the board in a very outboard position like would happen with the cassette(except more so) there is the potential for ventilation and other problems. The cassette has to be maximum outboard to work and he feels that these problems would work against it. I think it might be worth trying but to do it right is very expensive because the boat has to be designed from scratch for the system.

 
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MR.CLEAN

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Simon I think you are correct in that a tightening of the rules to prevent circumvention of the current intention is the best way to ensure the ongoing strength of the class. the strength of the A fleet has always been the ability to retain older sailors. Throwing this away in the hope of attracting kids away from moths seams a hiding to nowhere. Unless the rules were opened up such that foiling A's changed dramatically, they will always be significantly more expensive than a moth and probably offer no perceived additional sex appeal for the extra cost.

The problem with the rules as I see them at the moment is that advances in foiling technology has left the class half pregnant.

That would not be class legal because the rule states that the boards have to be "inserted from the top" and that idea is attached from the side. While there is nothing in the rules that prevents you from having a case that can be removed, even if it is bolted in place and even if it is on the side of the boat, that doesn't change the concept that the board has to be inserted from above.

Rather than go for totally wacky solutions which have lots of flaws and aren't class legal, why not do the obvious and that is insert a board that shape from the top or change the rules to allow boards to be fitted from below. It isn't actually that hard to design a case that would allow it. The only issues that everybody sees at the moment is the vast increase in costs. Some of you might not be involved with the AUS A Class association but we all received an email from Nathan Outteridge during an email exchange on the proposed rule change (to allow boards to be fitted from underneath) which basically said that the costs involved with full on foiling A's would probably kill the class. My estimate on the added costs involved in getting a fully foiling A with this style of foil puts the boats up to over $40,000 (an increase of at least $4000). Nathan used similar figures. Try asking the C Class guys how much their foils are. And don't come back with stuff about the Phantom. The A is a development class with a minimum weight. Because we know the current weight of the boats, there is very little wriggle room for the increased structure needed for a fully foiling boat and the increased weight that the foils will need to be in order to be built strong enough. That will mean that there is no option but to go with the most exotic construction. Getting a decent set of curved boards made is expensive enough, compared with ten straight boards of only a few years ago, but L foils are a whole new game. And unlike the Phantom where good foiling is all that is needed, in the A the push will be to find the best foils. That means lots of development and that adds even more to the costs.

Until Nathan wrote his views on foiling A's, I was very much in favour of changing the rules to make foiling easier (inserting foils from below) but I am now seriously concerned that it will be one step too far and price A's out of the market. When you can buy 2 competitive foiling Moths for the price of an A, something will have gone wrong somewhere.
Oh c'mon simon; an A is more than twice the weight and twice the number of hulls. Shouldn't it cost twice the price? ;)

 

Fireball

Anarchist
743
5
Why should the A class be worried about the Moth. Totally different class. Should we be worried about open 60s and maxi's too? In NA where sub foiling conditions are common the choice may not be so obvious. I think a new class (A+, AA, ,etc.) should be started if foiling is the direction some want to go. I agree w/ Simon's new found opinion, in that I'd love to be blasting around on foils but there is no way I can afford to do it, much less do it competitively, so I'd be out by budget, not by choice. I can at least trick myself into the expense to try to be competitive now.
Open 60s and Maxis cost millions.

Moths are cheaper, more convenient and faster than an A in most conditions. They also used to crash a lot, but they have improved their systems recently.

Moths have had a big impact on other high performance boats. I used to sail 18 footers and when the moths started sailing straight past us upwind and down we knew we were dinosaurs. Now the 18 footers are "Old Man's" boats and all the young guys sail moths.

The A's are in a slightly better position because there is a huge interest in multihulls because of the America's Cup. That's why we've had Barker, Outteridge, Spithill, Slingsby and others sailing A's. But this may not last too long if the class doesn't keep developing.

IMHO the A class rule 8 is a mess. 8.1 is the real restriction on foiling, but there is no proposal to change it. 8.2, which is the subject of the current debate, is less important because L foils require the windward foil to be retracted to reduce drag, but the only possible way to lift the boat while 8.1 is in effect is to use all 4 foils.

So we're having a discussion about something you wouldn't want to do. Maybe you can already use L foils with some complicated centreboard case. Maybe you can't. Who cares because of 8.1?

We had a long discussion about foiling on this forum about 6 months ago and there's been no real progress since. The current proposed rule change is a distraction, so nothing of substance can happen until 2015.

 

Tornadosail2012

Super Anarchist
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0
New Hampshire
Until Nathan wrote his views on foiling A's, I was very much in favour of changing the rules to make foiling easier (inserting foils from below) but I am now seriously concerned that it will be one step too far and price A's out of the market. When you can buy 2 competitive foiling Moths for the price of an A, something will have gone wrong somewhere.
SimonN,

Where is that posted?

Thanks,

TTS

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
Until Nathan wrote his views on foiling A's, I was very much in favour of changing the rules to make foiling easier (inserting foils from below) but I am now seriously concerned that it will be one step too far and price A's out of the market. When you can buy 2 competitive foiling Moths for the price of an A, something will have gone wrong somewhere.
SimonN,

Where is that posted?

Thanks,

TTS
Post 443, this thread

 

Fireball

Anarchist
743
5
There is no reason another proposal cannot be made and voted on at AGM on February if it can get two other countries' support.
Yes - good point. My understanding is that the rules can be changed in a vote following the world titles in Feb, 2014. Otherwise, the next opportunity would be the world titles in Sept, 2015.

Proposals need to be submitted 3 months prior to the AGM, which would be Nov 2013, so the deadline is approaching.

 
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piv

Member
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0
Here is my 2c, I dont have an A cat, but I would like to have a foiling A cat. The reason is I am a bit too heavy (100kg, 188cm) for a Moth and also I would like to play with wing sails, which is a practical impossibility on Moths. C class is too big. B class is virtually non existent. The A class rule used to be a pure box rule and I think it should go back to that but for me it doesnt matter. I am unlikely to race comptetively in A class but would like to line up against boats to see how mine is going. I think opening up to foiling would expand the A class similar to Moths. I dont think cost is an issue for the strength of a class. If people want a cheap boat , they will buy a cheap boat or a second hand boat. If they want the best they will pay for it. There are lots of Hyunda cars and lots of BMWs out there. Not much difference except for price. Perhaps there will be a new foiling cat class, something like the old A class, or the B class. The C class has gone to foiling and is the strongest ever, also the most expensive ever. If you cant afford a C cat, then go and sail an F18 or a Hobie 16, whatever. The best way to encourage foiling is with a box rule. That was the essence of the A class. I wouldnt even suggest having a minimum weight, it just makes builders use more carbon. Look at F18 centre boards, they have a minimum weight so they have three times the carbon and twice the cost compared to what they would be if there was no weight limit. People still turn up in old skiff and scow Moths and have fun racing in that division. I am sure there could be a straight board or 2012 rules A cat division that people could have fun in racing at lower cost. If A class doesnt allow good lifting foils and/or go back to a strict box rule then there will be some other class that will and that class will be seen as the premier class 9maybe its the Moth?), a position that I think should be held by A class and C class.

 

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
36
. According to my cat manufacturer friend there is no structural problem-and I agree with him.
RIGHTT.... According to someone who is not AClass, who knows nothing about a-Class or the issues involved. As for your 'many boards for full sized boats' - you are talking about the toilet seat dinghy and the foiler that never foiled and that stupid multihull windsurfing stillborn thing. THOSE DON"T COUNT.

 

Rawhide

Super Anarchist
1,900
103
Pittwater
Doug the loads in the foil area are not great, but the loads are mostly torsional so breaking the integrity of the hull shell with a side loading cassette is structurally problematic. this is nothing that can't be fixed with extra carbon and extra cost. But most A's struggle to get below minimum weight as it is and adding weight around the foil area has to come from some other structural element such as the beams, not good for overall platform rigidity.

A much better solution is a cassette which slides in from the top of the hull maintaining the hull shell and clearly in conformance with the current rule 8.2. This cassette does not need to be that large to get the L or J through the hull then slid down on the foil to lock into the hull. the real issue is that it has to have an absolutely rigid connection to the hull. This too can be achieved with nothing more than the application of more $$$. But this exposes the deficiency in rule 8.2, to achieve sufficient rigidity, I suspect it would be a lot easier to leave the cassette in place, except when necessary to demonstrate compliance with the rules and lift one hull at a time and insert the foils from below.

The cassette system that I came up with would definitely be able to be installed "from the top"-no question about it. The downside, according to a cat manufacturer I've shown it to, is that there could be problems due to the proximity of the foil to the side of the boat. But there may be solutions to that as well.
 

MR.CLEAN

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Here is my 2c, I dont have an A cat, but I would like to have a foiling A cat. The reason is I am a bit too heavy (100kg, 188cm) for a Moth and also I would like to play with wing sails, which is a practical impossibility on Moths. C class is too big. B class is virtually non existent. The A class rule used to be a pure box rule and I think it should go back to that but for me it doesnt matter. I am unlikely to race comptetively in A class but would like to line up against boats to see how mine is going. I think opening up to foiling would expand the A class similar to Moths. I dont think cost is an issue for the strength of a class. If people want a cheap boat , they will buy a cheap boat or a second hand boat. If they want the best they will pay for it. There are lots of Hyunda cars and lots of BMWs out there. Not much difference except for price. Perhaps there will be a new foiling cat class, something like the old A class, or the B class. The C class has gone to foiling and is the strongest ever, also the most expensive ever. If you cant afford a C cat, then go and sail an F18 or a Hobie 16, whatever. The best way to encourage foiling is with a box rule. That was the essence of the A class. I wouldnt even suggest having a minimum weight, it just makes builders use more carbon. Look at F18 centre boards, they have a minimum weight so they have three times the carbon and twice the cost compared to what they would be if there was no weight limit. People still turn up in old skiff and scow Moths and have fun racing in that division. I am sure there could be a straight board or 2012 rules A cat division that people could have fun in racing at lower cost. If A class doesnt allow good lifting foils and/or go back to a strict box rule then there will be some other class that will and that class will be seen as the premier class 9maybe its the Moth?), a position that I think should be held by A class and C class.
If the A-Class Rules don't alllow proper foiling, someone will (and a few are obviously working on it) come up with a one-design almost-A that will. If it hits the price point and doesn't shoot itself in the dick, it will suck the younger A-boaters in a lot quicker than you might think. Then the class may be forced to act, and if they don't act quickly, it might be too late for a mass defection. When this shit happens it happens fast. If the price point is truly unachievable, the anti-foilers can relax and toe the line.

We'll get to see what happens on a bigger platform with the Phantom, if they don't shoot themselves in the dick either. The biggest problem is that foiling is just so damned fun.

 
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Fireball

Anarchist
743
5
Every young sailor in the world wants to sail a foiling catamaran right now. They watch tv and see Jimmy, Ben and Tommy sharing jokes with their billionaire sponsor at press conferences: "We're going to fly down to my island in Hawaii for a party." "Oh - I thought you were going to give us the island - haha." Foiling catamarans are the future for pro sailing, so there is a huge demand for an affordable foiling catamaran for all the young guns in the sport.

The A class is not getting this. They are expensive, but much of the expense doesn't translate into equipment that helps develop skills the kids need. The A class has carbon fibre wing masts that bend fore and aft. They are fragile and very expensive - they cost almost as much as an old second hand boat. New foils for hydrofoiling are probably still going to be cheaper than the current masts.

Realistically, no new proposal to change the rules is going to appear in the next month. The current proposal isn't going to make much difference to the performance of the boats and it's received a very mixed reception to say the least. These proposals need a 2/3 majority both at the class AGM and at a vote of all the members.

The next opportunity to change the rules is Sept, 2015, but the voting process takes awhile, so it will be late 2015 or early 2016 before any changes could take effect. This will be 3 1/2 years after ETNZ revealed their foiling AC72 and started this phenomenon.

So the A class has probably missed the boat as far as foiling is concerned. IMHO this is a pity, but I'm sure it gives opportunities for other classes to fill the gap.

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
755
Sydney ex London
Every young sailor in the world wants to sail a foiling catamaran right now. They watch tv and see Jimmy, Ben and Tommy sharing jokes with their billionaire sponsor at press conferences: "We're going to fly down to my island in Hawaii for a party." "Oh - I thought you were going to give us the island - haha." Foiling catamarans are the future for pro sailing, so there is a huge demand for an affordable foiling catamaran for all the young guns in the sport. So says you. I don't think there is a whole raft of kids waiting to be able to buy a foiling cat. If you are right, ita 16 is going to be a very happy man. Even if they are out there, they are not wanting to buy a foiling A. It is too big. If there is a market, it is for a small boat, which makes the whole thing so much easier for a whole number of reasons, not least that it is far easier to build something with the right power to weight ratio if it is small (which is why the Moth works so well).

The A class is not getting this. They are expensive, but much of the expense doesn't translate into equipment that helps develop skills the kids need. The A class has carbon fibre wing masts that bend fore and aft. They are fragile and very expensive - they cost almost as much as an old second hand boat. First off, the current masts are anything but fragile. In fact, I would argue totally the opposite. They stand up to far more abuse than you would see with metal masts. Any comments to the contrary is simply wrong. Of course, if you bounce the mast on the bottom, they will snap, but a metal mast will banana beyond repair in the same situation, so what's the difference. Second, while it might not help develop kids (and why should that be the aim of the A Class anyway), they make the boats far nicer to sail in so many ways. It's one of the comments I hear from guys who upgrade from old boats with metal masts. Because of the height of the mast, upwind pitching is bad enough with the current masts. If we went back to metal, which would weigh significantly more, some if not all the current hulls would be unsuitable because the extra pitching will need different buoyancy distribution. Finally, because of the extra weight of the metal masts, you either need to increase the minimum weight or else the boats will end up being even more expensive as people will need to use more and more advanced building techniques and materials in order to meet minimum weight. And even if you do go to metal masts, you save about $2000 out of $35,000, while making the whole experience worse. Finally, if your aim is to have foiling boat, going back to metal would mean all the things that are bad about metal for the existing boats is even worse for a foiler. Rigs with lower CoG makes a big difference, plus you need to boats as light as possible (power to weight) to make foiling easy. Overall, going back to metal would be a serious backwards move for the class at a time you are saying it needs to move forward.

So the A class has probably missed the boat as far as foiling is concerned. IMHO this is a pity, but I'm sure it gives opportunities for other classes to fill the gap. I have heard this about foilers for nearly 10 years now, particularly in monohulls, yet the Moth remain sthe only successful and available foiler out there. The simple reason is just like we see with cars. Everybody loves the top race series in whatever sort of racing they follow, yet what do they go out and buy? We learnt this lesson back in the 1990's, when everybody thought that the sailing market wanted fast, skiff style boats yet the big manufacturers found that it was the big, heavy, slow dinghies that sold.
The bottom line is that the A serves a particular market segment and does it very, very well. A few AC types coming in has really done little for the numbers - note that Nathan Outteridge and Tom Slingsby raced A's before cats were used for the AC. The class mustn't change to accommodate a few kids who somehow have more money than most of their peer group. The class must fit the needs of the core market it serves.

Finally, what other class has the opportunity? There are none existing, which means that somebody has to start from scratch. If you think there is the demand for a single handed foiling cat, there's your opportunity.

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
Theres a bunch of small foilers under development from a cartopable foiler to a double/single hander to the Phantom -and after Cleans interview with Spithill- probably a foiler for Opti kids. Lot of excitement about foiling now. I'd say the A Class doesn't have much time to commit before it's too late-and I'm not convinced they should but this could be a very opportune time to build interest in the class.

 
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Catnewbie

Member
388
0
München
Why do not reconsider another rule change, in order to be consistent with the technological progress while maintaining A-Cat affordable. a global approach is necessary to achieve a consistant result.

Just change the weight limit to 80 kg in order to have a reliable boat with stiff carbon board casings, and some margin to upgrade old boats.

Regarding the foils, I ll suggest to read Morelli/Melvin interview here:http://www.cupinfo.com/en/americas-cup-gino-morrelli-foils-multihulls-13144.php

As far as I understand, if moveable parts on the foils had been authorized, we would have probably seen foils with hinge flaps like the Moth.

In this case, a pure L shape can make it, ant tooling is much cheaper than curved mould. actuation forces on a hinged flap are very different than those required to move the foil and/or its casing.

If ETNZ had imagine a stability control system using car shock absorber, I guess it could be an acceptable challenge for the A-Cat designer, with not that much extra costs.

IMHO the actual issue with foiling is that light crew might get a significant advantage whatever is the wind.

Already today, being a light crew does not seem to be big disavantage windward in the breeze?

While downwind it's a "no brainer" light is fast.

Cheers

W

 

ita 16

Anarchist
yes, Doug is partially right, the boom of the foiling begins in a short time, but it is too early to take this step, you are likely to throw the future of Class A into a bottomless abyss, has not yet been shown that a cat with single crew can fly well in many conditions of wind and wave, safe, and in my opinion the risk is too great.
I also believe that Class A Flying of the future will be totally different from the present, in this way we risk disgusted thousands of owners of ACAT, destroying a class solid and compact. I am in favor of foiling but it is not the right time, it is too early, before jumping so important I would like to see what'll land, it is better not to risk too much, we have enough time to decide and to evaluate.
in the past we have talked a lot about the high cost, I had proposed to increase the weight to 80 kg and eliminate technologies and materials too expensive "in proportion to the increase in performance," this would reduce costs and would give a large margin of work for designers and builders to adopt new ideas and solutions to improve the Acat "for example by adopting the foil."
the proposal to change Rule 8.2 has been made to reduce costs and to allow the Acat to fly, this will not happen, the costs are bound to increase and the flight of the boats will not be satisfactory, only increasing the restrictive rules we will see costs decrease . I think the best solution is to increase the restrictive rules "just for now" and in the very near future to allow Acat to fly without too much restrictive rules, this only if it is demonstrated that the ACAT can fly well and safely.

regards , Michele

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
755
Sydney ex London
As far as I understand, if moveable parts on the foils had been authorized, we would have probably seen foils with hinge flaps like the Moth.

In this case, a pure L shape can make it, ant tooling is much cheaper than curved mould. actuation forces on a hinged flap are very different than those required to move the foil and/or its casing.
I think you are missing a fair amount of the picture. Read what I posted from Nathan O. Yes, you would save some money not having to make an L, but with the moth style system, the cost comes back with the control systems. Yes, there are some pretty simple wand systems out there, but, in a development class, you would end up with a simple system not being good enough and you end up with what the Moths have, with the ability to adjust ride height, wand length, wand gearing and probably more still. Overall, this adds significantly to the cost and I would guess that the end price between a moulded L and a Moth style set up means there would be little difference in price. On top of that, the systems need constant maintenance to keep working well enough for competitive sailing.

There is no cheap, easy way to get A's foiling properly. IMO, relaxing the rules a bit will simply lead to the boats costing another $5000. Increasing the weight limit won't help either, because once full on foiling, assuming you always have either 3 or 4 foils in the water, platform stiffness becomes key. This means that the boats will use up every bit of the weight on exotics, making the boat even more expensive.

 

Fireball

Anarchist
743
5
I suspect that wands are illegal because of RRS 52, which has been tightened up in the 2013-2016 rules. The moths have an exemption to RRS 52 in their class rules, but the A class has no such exemption.

52 MANUAL POWER

A boats standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew.

 
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SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
755
Sydney ex London
I suspect that wands are illegal because of RRS 52, which has been tightened up in the 2013-2016 rules. The moths have an exemption to RRS 52 in their class rules, but the A class has no such exemption.

52 MANUAL POWER

A boats standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew.
Can you please show me where the exemption is in the Moth Class rules. Clearly my copy is out of date and so is the one on the class website, because they don't mention it at all and neither have any in the past. I believe that your interpretation of rule 52 is wrong, based on rule interpretations made by ISAF. The wand system isn't powered by anything. It operates on a direct linkage between the water and the flap, so it is considered to be part of wind and water action on the boat. Systems that work directly due to contact with water or wind aren't covered in this rule. If they were, the fact that our masts self tack would be illegal, because that happens with no crew power or operation. The canting rig that Groupama used on their C Cat would be illegal because the crew doesn't pull the rig over, wind action does. I believe that this rule is about push button control with motors.

It is my understanding that foils with a wand system would be class legal on an A, just like they are on a Moth and on a C Class or on R class skiffs etc.

 

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