new stuff in the a-class

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
27
Constrictors were discussed in the Gear Anarchy thread under the title of "Rope Clutch" http://www.ronstan.com.au/marine5/constrictor.asp The claim is that they are 1/3 the weight for a similar strength clutch, and because to release them you pull on a lanyard rather than a lever arm,and because you don't have to "close" the clutch, just slack the trip lanyard, it means that you can not only put it at the top of the mast (they are also much lower profile) but you can make them part of an automatic-release, automatic-set system

So for instance, if you release the constriictor (by pulling on the release lanyard) and the rig falls to leeward, then you take slack out of the leeward shroud and then release the leeward constrictor lanyard and tack you now have the mast canted to weather as necessary and reverse it for the other direction. And you set it up so that pulling on the port release lanyard slacks the stb release lanyard and vice versa. A simple way to think about this (though probably not the optimal way to implement it) would be if the release lanyards of both were continuous and set up in a way similar to Harken's "windward sheeting traveller car" so that sheeting in on the side you are tacking away from opens the constrictor on that side and lets it close on the other.

Here's a video of how they work http://www.sailmagazine.com/pittman-innovation-awards/cousin-trestec-constrictor

 
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A

Amati

Guest
There's nothing to stop anyone turning up with a smaller boat, as long as it fits within the box rule and, and here is the problem, it still weighs 75 kilos and only has 14sqm of sail area ( which in my opinion is just too small to reliably power up enough to get 75 kgs + skipper onto foils )

I disagree that foils will damage the class, there's to many problems with foiling that almost certainly unless the conditions are just right, we will have pretty conventional boats with semi foiling capabilities, winning for some time yet. Why would anybody turn up with a trick foil boat if they knew conditions would be at all variable. Just make sure you pick variable wind world championship sites, set in the nor that you can sail only one boat, 1 set of foils and you would have no problem with trick boats turning up.

The cost of development of foils is a non issue, I think in the recent interview with Morelli that he was quoting only nz$ 8000 per board on the sl33's, modern 3d cnc cutters can create almost anything you want let alone the new line of 3d printers that could pop out a new foil tip overnight.

The biggest worry for the A Class must be that someone starts producing tunnel hulls with foils at about 14 ft weighing 50 or so kilos, that can beat an A around the course.
Or without lifting foils.....

Even a tunnel hull A might be interesting. Maybe inherently more stable?

How does a Vortex do against an A cat? Turbo or not?

 

AClass USA 230

Anarchist
961
52
Louisiana
There's nothing to stop anyone turning up with a smaller boat, as long as it fits within the box rule and, and here is the problem, it still weighs 75 kilos and only has 14sqm of sail area ( which in my opinion is just too small to reliably power up enough to get 75 kgs + skipper onto foils )

I disagree that foils will damage the class, there's to many problems with foiling that almost certainly unless the conditions are just right, we will have pretty conventional boats with semi foiling capabilities, winning for some time yet. Why would anybody turn up with a trick foil boat if they knew conditions would be at all variable. Just make sure you pick variable wind world championship sites, set in the nor that you can sail only one boat, 1 set of foils and you would have no problem with trick boats turning up.

The cost of development of foils is a non issue, I think in the recent interview with Morelli that he was quoting only nz$ 8000 per board on the sl33's, modern 3d cnc cutters can create almost anything you want let alone the new line of 3d printers that could pop out a new foil tip overnight.

The biggest worry for the A Class must be that someone starts producing tunnel hulls with foils at about 14 ft weighing 50 or so kilos, that can beat an A around the course.
Or without lifting foils.....

Even a tunnel hull A might be interesting. Maybe inherently more stable?

How does a Vortex do against an A cat? Turbo or not?
About like a Nissan Sentra against a Carrera Turbo.

 

gideon

New member
21
0
There's nothing to stop anyone turning up with a smaller boat, as long as it fits within the box rule and, and here is the problem, it still weighs 75 kilos and only has 14sqm of sail area ( which in my opinion is just too small to reliably power up enough to get 75 kgs + skipper onto foils )

I disagree that foils will damage the class, there's to many problems with foiling that almost certainly unless the conditions are just right, we will have pretty conventional boats with semi foiling capabilities, winning for some time yet. Why would anybody turn up with a trick foil boat if they knew conditions would be at all variable. Just make sure you pick variable wind world championship sites, set in the nor that you can sail only one boat, 1 set of foils and you would have no problem with trick boats turning up.

The cost of development of foils is a non issue, I think in the recent interview with Morelli that he was quoting only nz$ 8000 per board on the sl33's, modern 3d cnc cutters can create almost anything you want let alone the new line of 3d printers that could pop out a new foil tip overnight.

The biggest worry for the A Class must be that someone starts producing tunnel hulls with foils at about 14 ft weighing 50 or so kilos, that can beat an A around the course.
A little back of the envelope arithmetic on weight and power for the Moth vs A class catamaran.

Assuming available power is proportional to sail area, for a skipper of 75kg we have:

Mach2 moth - 28 kg, 8.25 m^2 -> 0.080 m^2/kg

A class, 75 kg, 13.94 m^2 -> 0.093 m^2/kg

So the A class catamaran, plus skipper, has a higher power-to-weight ratio than the Moth.

The A class catamaran has another advantage in that the rig is restricted only by sail area, while the Moth has a limited mast length

On the downside, the A class will have more windage than the Moth, and it cannot so easily be heeled to windward like a Moth. That last is, I think, an important part of the efficiency of the Moth.

 
A little back of the envelope arithmetic on weight and power for the Moth vs A class catamaran.

Assuming available power is proportional to sail area, for a skipper of 75kg we have:

Mach2 moth - 28 kg, 8.25 m^2 -> 0.080 m^2/kg

A class, 75 kg, 13.94 m^2 -> 0.093 m^2/kg

So the A class catamaran, plus skipper, has a higher power-to-weight ratio than the Moth.

The A class catamaran has another advantage in that the rig is restricted only by sail area, while the Moth has a limited mast length

On the downside, the A class will have more windage than the Moth, and it cannot so easily be heeled to windward like a Moth. That last is, I think, an important part of the efficiency of the Moth.
Only part of the story, what about the drag of two 17ft hulls in the water pre foiling vs 1 12 ft mono hull and that for me is the major problem for the A's, sail horsepower is just not quite enough to reliably get the A up and onto its foils. Once on its foils then game on.

Perhaps the A's should just allow a jib and then it would be game on, oh they already do, now the problem with that route was downwind, but up on foils we suddenly are fully into apparent wind. Would Randy's trial of a jib and foils maybe the answer.

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
I deleted long rant.

If foiling is faster, it is going to happen. The class needs to insure that it happens in a way that is practical. In my 20 years in the class, there has been at least one revolution between 1999 and 2004 which saw pretty much 100% of the World's fleet change change from Bover IVs to Flyers. This on the heels of carbon masts and beams. So the fleet has rolled over several times and will do so again.

Once again the boats have to stay practical, so I think some requirement that essentially has the boats siting on dolies as they do now and sailing off the beach as they do now, will be fine. What we need to avoid is people having to tip their boats on their side at the water's edge and spend 10 minutes making up connections and then swimming them out to deep water.

Nothing in the current rules prevents me from building an advanced foil system, it simply requires me to go to a lot of trouble to build a trunk system that will satisfy the rule, and which will do nothing to make the boat more or less practical. I will sail off the same ramp as everyone else.

Pre preg is much more complicated and costly than the difference in material costs indicate. It isn't as simple as putting different stuff in the same mold, you have to change almost everything to do it properly. Some get away with not doing it right for a while, and will blow smoke up your ass. Ultimately its your call. The core bond is a big issue, and the film adhesive resins are modified to do this job. You do not get the same results by just increasing the resin content of the laminate. The labor content is higher, the processing slower and the rework more extensive. But I'm from the east coast of Dumbfuckistan, so what do I know?

SHC

 

ClickClickBoom

New member
34
2
A 14' hull is easier to transport and this whole concept is super enticing! Let's start up a new 14' class in the US and ditch the over-the-top expensive 18' boats. Bimare has hit a fun "homerun". I'm in.

BC

 

LCD

New member
17
0
I deleted long rant.

If foiling is faster, it is going to happen. The class needs to insure that it happens in a way that is practical. In my 20 years in the class, there has been at least one revolution between 1999 and 2004 which saw pretty much 100% of the World's fleet change change from Bover IVs to Flyers. This on the heels of carbon masts and beams. So the fleet has rolled over several times and will do so again.

Once again the boats have to stay practical, so I think some requirement that essentially has the boats siting on dolies as they do now and sailing off the beach as they do now, will be fine. What we need to avoid is people having to tip their boats on their side at the water's edge and spend 10 minutes making up connections and then swimming them out to deep water.

Nothing in the current rules prevents me from building an advanced foil system, it simply requires me to go to a lot of trouble to build a trunk system that will satisfy the rule, and which will do nothing to make the boat more or less practical. I will sail off the same ramp as everyone else.

Pre preg is much more complicated and costly than the difference in material costs indicate. It isn't as simple as putting different stuff in the same mold, you have to change almost everything to do it properly. Some get away with not doing it right for a while, and will blow smoke up your ass. Ultimately its your call. The core bond is a big issue, and the film adhesive resins are modified to do this job. You do not get the same results by just increasing the resin content of the laminate. The labor content is higher, the processing slower and the rework more extensive. But I'm from the east coast of Dumbfuckistan, so what do I know?

SHC
Well said Steve. Stay practical and keep it simple. That's why I went back to hand laminating over foam, without building a mold.

 

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
27
I deleted long rant.

If foiling is faster, it is going to happen. The class needs to insure that it happens in a way that is practical. In my 20 years in the class, there has been at least one revolution between 1999 and 2004 which saw pretty much 100% of the World's fleet change change from Bover IVs to Flyers. This on the heels of carbon masts and beams. So the fleet has rolled over several times and will do so again.

Once again the boats have to stay practical, so I think some requirement that essentially has the boats siting on dolies as they do now and sailing off the beach as they do now, will be fine. What we need to avoid is people having to tip their boats on their side at the water's edge and spend 10 minutes making up connections and then swimming them out to deep water.

Nothing in the current rules prevents me from building an advanced foil system, it simply requires me to go to a lot of trouble to build a trunk system that will satisfy the rule, and which will do nothing to make the boat more or less practical. I will sail off the same ramp as everyone else.

Pre preg is much more complicated and costly than the difference in material costs indicate. It isn't as simple as putting different stuff in the same mold, you have to change almost everything to do it properly. Some get away with not doing it right for a while, and will blow smoke up your ass. Ultimately its your call. The core bond is a big issue, and the film adhesive resins are modified to do this job. You do not get the same results by just increasing the resin content of the laminate. The labor content is higher, the processing slower and the rework more extensive. But I'm from the east coast of Dumbfuckistan, so what do I know?

SHC
Would the Shit storm that happened in the A-Scows with a templated Carbon fiber boat that essentially obsoleted the whole fleet be of useful instruction here? I don't have a dog in this fight, but this series of discussions reminds me a lot of what went on in that thread

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
I deleted long rant.

If foiling is faster, it is going to happen. The class needs to insure that it happens in a way that is practical. In my 20 years in the class, there has been at least one revolution between 1999 and 2004 which saw pretty much 100% of the World's fleet change change from Bover IVs to Flyers. This on the heels of carbon masts and beams. So the fleet has rolled over several times and will do so again.

Once again the boats have to stay practical, so I think some requirement that essentially has the boats siting on dolies as they do now and sailing off the beach as they do now, will be fine. What we need to avoid is people having to tip their boats on their side at the water's edge and spend 10 minutes making up connections and then swimming them out to deep water.

Nothing in the current rules prevents me from building an advanced foil system, it simply requires me to go to a lot of trouble to build a trunk system that will satisfy the rule, and which will do nothing to make the boat more or less practical. I will sail off the same ramp as everyone else.

Pre preg is much more complicated and costly than the difference in material costs indicate. It isn't as simple as putting different stuff in the same mold, you have to change almost everything to do it properly. Some get away with not doing it right for a while, and will blow smoke up your ass. Ultimately its your call. The core bond is a big issue, and the film adhesive resins are modified to do this job. You do not get the same results by just increasing the resin content of the laminate. The labor content is higher, the processing slower and the rework more extensive. But I'm from the east coast of Dumbfuckistan, so what do I know?

SHC
Would the Shit storm that happened in the A-Scows with a templated Carbon fiber boat that essentially obsoleted the whole fleet be of useful instruction here? I don't have a dog in this fight, but this series of discussions reminds me a lot of what went on in that thread
I don't think the situations are analogous in any way. The A Scow was a small regional development class which had become used to being a class that was manufactured by a single supplier who essentially regulated the rate of innovation. The A Cat has many more suppliers and more diversity of users. The A Cat already has boats built to the limits of technology, and customers willing to pay a premium for "super" specifications. So the two situations are fundamentally different.

In 2000, the "Flyer" obsoleted the whole fleet.

According to some, the DNA is doing the same thing now with construction specs instead of platform design.

I don't really care if it's foiling or some other development, fearfully anticipating what the class is going to develop next and trying to take steps to preempt it is just contrary to my entire understanding of the class heritage and tradition.

SHC

 

Catnewbie

Member
388
0
München
Working environment regulations could be another driver of progress.

In Northern Europe, when managing a composite boutique, you need to comply with a lot of regulations which prompt you to move toward "infusion" or "pre-peg" technologies, because safer for the working staff, and less expenses in fan & related equipment.

Unless you accept your wet laminated cheaper boats to be build by kids in developing countries, without anything to protect them from expoxy vapors....the trend is here already.

Most of the time technological progress goes hand by hand with productivity progress, it was a bit the philosophy of the DNA project: To achieve a cheaper NIKITA with scale economy, using among other lean management approach for construction and so on.

Cheers

W

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
Cat Newbie:

I have processed everything from pre preg in autoclaves to open mold chopper gun. I have done this In North America where we have relatively strict regulations and ( in my neck of the woods at least) cold winters. I have done this in unheated sheds with dirt floors and clean rooms. So I kind of know my shit. To suggest that everyone who doesn't use super exotic composites is exploiting the children of under developed nations is total bullshit. It isn't a binary decision, and there are lots of legitimate options between the two.

It is always a matter of selecting the appropriate technology for the product. All factors play a part in determining what that appropriate technology is. Individual companies need to differentiate their products or else they simply become commodities where the lowest cost is the sole marketing factor.

In a "performance" market, Design, Innovation and Specification are easiest way to identify yourself. Price and Value are harder to maintain and defend. So companies which serve "performance" markets will hype their Design, Innovation and Specification even when the particular feature may not have a meaningful impact on the performance of the product.

SHC

 

Tornadosail2012

Super Anarchist
1,006
0
New Hampshire
Cat Newbie:

I have processed everything from pre preg in autoclaves to open mold chopper gun. I have done this In North America where we have relatively strict regulations and ( in my neck of the woods at least) cold winters. I have done this in unheated sheds with dirt floors and clean rooms. So I kind of know my shit. To suggest that everyone who doesn't use super exotic composites is exploiting the children of under developed nations is total bullshit. It isn't a binary decision, and there are lots of legitimate options between the two.

It is always a matter of selecting the appropriate technology for the product. All factors play a part in determining what that appropriate technology is. Individual companies need to differentiate their products or else they simply become commodities where the lowest cost is the sole marketing factor.

In a "performance" market, Design, Innovation and Specification are easiest way to identify yourself. Price and Value are harder to maintain and defend. So companies which serve "performance" markets will hype their Design, Innovation and Specification even when the particular feature may not have a meaningful impact on the performance of the product.

SHC
+1

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,532
753
Sydney ex London
Cat Newbie:

I have processed everything from pre preg in autoclaves to open mold chopper gun. I have done this In North America where we have relatively strict regulations and ( in my neck of the woods at least) cold winters. I have done this in unheated sheds with dirt floors and clean rooms. So I kind of know my shit. To suggest that everyone who doesn't use super exotic composites is exploiting the children of under developed nations is total bullshit. It isn't a binary decision, and there are lots of legitimate options between the two.

It is always a matter of selecting the appropriate technology for the product. All factors play a part in determining what that appropriate technology is. Individual companies need to differentiate their products or else they simply become commodities where the lowest cost is the sole marketing factor.

In a "performance" market, Design, Innovation and Specification are easiest way to identify yourself. Price and Value are harder to maintain and defend. So companies which serve "performance" markets will hype their Design, Innovation and Specification even when the particular feature may not have a meaningful impact on the performance of the product.

SHC
While I disagree with Steve on his original comments (based on my years building composite parts) I not only agree with what he writes here but I also think that the whole post by Cat Newbie is out of order and ill informed and very unhelpful to the discussion.

 

Catnewbie

Member
388
0
München
May be I should have present things differently, I admit it was bit caricatural

AFAIK, people working in composite , are quite pleased with infusion & pre-peg compare to what they used to do some years ago.

Composite dealers/makers also prompt composite boutiques to move high tech with more affordable pre-peg, which can be store at room temp...

and overall they said that of course it's more expensive, it requires higher skills, but it's much safer working environment, and tigher regulation creates a competitive disadvantage for wet hand composites, which decreases the cost gap

It seems to me that there is some "institutional" pressure to move in this direction.

Just because, like for any industry, when product are lower tech & labor-intensive vs Higher-tech & higher skills labor, the production is removed into cheaper labor countries, usually with less regulations. For sure mentioning the "exploited kids" is a bit demagogic and I apologize.

Coming back to A-Cat, I don't know if there is a big difference in structural requirement for half-foiling boats like Paradox (within current rule-box), and an A-Cat designed for full flying , in both cases you need stiff platform so appropriate technology.

Also I d like to know the difference in cost between these S shape centerboards which fit the rule box and an appropriate centerboard designed to foil.

In other words, precluding the boat to foil makes sense if it leads to boats that are actually cheaper, but it's far from sure.

Cheers

W

 




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