new stuff in the a-class
- Thread starter Lars Schrøder d 13
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SimonN
Super Anarchist
While quoting all the statistics, do you know how many new boats there were in 2013? I think it was 5 or 6. Did you see the turnouts at the major events in Oz, such as the nationals, which was half of the what we were regularly seeing only a couple of years ago. Have you seen that DNA have restructured their business due to the reduced level of sales? Other builders have been saying that sales are weak, all because of the foiling issue. Although I haven't checked, friends tell me that the second hand market in Oz is dead.
If you think the vote to do nothing was good for the class, I think you aren't really looking at it from the right viewpoint. Because of the Landy cassette and the fact we now know what the rules are, we can expect lots of development and a period of great uncertainty. I wonder how many people are going to invest in a new boat knowing what is going on. I already know of one person who decided today not to proceed with an order for that very reason. All it needs is for somebody to come up with something faster that fits through a Landy style system and every new boat will be obsolete or in need of expensive modifications. Simply put, this vote has left us with the same uncertainty as we had before, an uncertainty that killed the sales of new boats.
Of course, there is nothing more than I would like but to be wrong about this. I want a strong A Class with lots of good class racing, particularly now I actually have the time to sail again.
If you think the vote to do nothing was good for the class, I think you aren't really looking at it from the right viewpoint. Because of the Landy cassette and the fact we now know what the rules are, we can expect lots of development and a period of great uncertainty. I wonder how many people are going to invest in a new boat knowing what is going on. I already know of one person who decided today not to proceed with an order for that very reason. All it needs is for somebody to come up with something faster that fits through a Landy style system and every new boat will be obsolete or in need of expensive modifications. Simply put, this vote has left us with the same uncertainty as we had before, an uncertainty that killed the sales of new boats.
Of course, there is nothing more than I would like but to be wrong about this. I want a strong A Class with lots of good class racing, particularly now I actually have the time to sail again.
Sonofabitch
Member
- 286
- 1
Ever heard of self fulfilling prophecy? Stop talking down the future. Better still stop talking altogether
It's hard to talk up the class.
They have looked to be very badly organised in recent years with attempts by people to fly their boats. The class sat back and did nothing, which showed a terrible lack of leadership. Either they didn't want the boats to fly, in which case they should have beefed up the anti-foiling rules, or they did want the boats to fly, in which case they should have opened up the rules.
Doing nothing has just wasted people's time and money and caused the current mess.
Now the class is a complete rabble. We have pros sailing diabolical boats as some sort of pissing competition to get spots in the next AC. The racing is determined by wind strength and by whether the foilers break. The class is divided and risks being gridlocked with neither pro foiling nor anti-foiling camps having enough votes to make any changes.
If anybody can see the upside to this situation then please explain it to me.
They have looked to be very badly organised in recent years with attempts by people to fly their boats. The class sat back and did nothing, which showed a terrible lack of leadership. Either they didn't want the boats to fly, in which case they should have beefed up the anti-foiling rules, or they did want the boats to fly, in which case they should have opened up the rules.
Doing nothing has just wasted people's time and money and caused the current mess.
Now the class is a complete rabble. We have pros sailing diabolical boats as some sort of pissing competition to get spots in the next AC. The racing is determined by wind strength and by whether the foilers break. The class is divided and risks being gridlocked with neither pro foiling nor anti-foiling camps having enough votes to make any changes.
If anybody can see the upside to this situation then please explain it to me.
SimonN
Super Anarchist
I am not making a prophecy. I am stating what happened last year. The class was incredibly strong. Based on last year's figures and what else is going on, it is at crisis point. Of course, you can bury your head in the sand and ignore it, but I don't think that is going to give the class the boost it needs.
Simon I admire your enthusiasm for the class and certainly welcome your contribution by volunteering to be a State measurer. However I think you are wrong in couple of areas in this post. This is a development class and we have long come to expect uncertainty and the prospect of increased cost as ideas are tried and discarded and only a small percentage adopted. We have had similar major tipping points with the move from timber to glass hulls, the adoption of weight limit, change to carbon masts and major hull shape change post worlds 99.
Also I completely dissagree on boat sales. Globally DNA sales have slowed but another brand has "Exloded". In AUS second hand sales have never been better. I have personally been involved in many sales of high end, mid range and lower range boats in the last 12 months right up to now. I am also aware of most other sales happening and it is strong.
Hold the faith, it is a dynamic and exiting time.
BTW I think your cost estimates in another post for DNA and Exploder in AUS are way off.
See you on the race track.
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SimonN
Super Anarchist
WetnWild
The cost estimates were done at the nationals amongst a group including those who supply the class. While I admit it was "at the pub", I have since checked the DNA figures and they are correct. A friend has a Nikita on order and I have used the figures he is paying. However, to be sure, I have a little time this afternoon and I will go back and check the figures.
I have sailed development classes most of my life, so I am well used to what happens. In one class, 2 weeks before the nationals everybody said I had the fastest boat and was a favourite to win. I personally thought the event was mine to lose, until somebody turned up with a new boat to a new design and won every race. But I would argue that is completely different from what is going on now with the A.
What we are now seeing isn't s step change in design, but a step change in the way we sail the boats and the skills needed to sail them. With the current rules and foiling, we are going from a boat that all can sail reasonably competitively to one that needs a whole new skill set, one that I think many won't pick up or be bothered to try to master. I mean no disrespect to you by the following, but do you aggressively steer from the wire downwind in all conditions? Because that is where the class is headed. The front runners have barely scratched the surface, having done relatively little training (the moth guys train non stop!). Landy and Scott are looking good because there are only a few foiling and the picture is further cliouded by gear failures (although Landy does steer aggressively from the wire and I suspect will make the transition). Now imagine next year if the likes of Steve Brayshaw, Adam Beattie, Demon, Jack Benson and other younger members of the class who I have forgotten move on to boats that foil and put the time in. Suddenly, I think we will see a great sailor like Scott not even in the top 10.
Then look at you and I as examples. While I am probably delusional enough to hope that my Moth foiling experience will help, the reality is that the odds are very much against us with this new foiling. Given the boats as we have been racing them (non foiling), we would have liked to believe that on any day, there was a chance we could get our act together enough to be up there, I have seen you have your moments. Those will be gone. Then look at all the other people sailing the boats of our generation who are competitive. I am not being disrespectful, but we simply no longer have the speed and agility for these foilers, but on the non foiling boats our limitations could be overcome enough to make us think we could still compete.
Not only do we need to be significantly more agile and fitter, but we also will need to put up with more pain. An A with C boards and winglets on the rudder is beautifully mannered. Even without winglets, I have capsized a total of 4 times since I bought the boat and recently sailed on lake Macquarie in 25 knots and never felt I was going over. I know that once I try foiling these boats, all that changes and crashes hurt - the older we get the longer it takes to recover. I cannot remember seeing you ever capsize, but how would you like to do so 2 or 3 times a race in say 18-20 knots?
When I bought an A, I believed that I had bought a boat that I would be able to sail well past retirement and, on a good day, still give the whippersnappers a run for their money. All the changes you highlighted that have happened before wouldn't have changed that. This step change is a whole new game and I don't see that as a possibility any more. That can be changed 2 ways. First, regulate against foiling or second, change the rules to make foiling easier. I am now in favour of the second, because I think there is no going back.
The cost estimates were done at the nationals amongst a group including those who supply the class. While I admit it was "at the pub", I have since checked the DNA figures and they are correct. A friend has a Nikita on order and I have used the figures he is paying. However, to be sure, I have a little time this afternoon and I will go back and check the figures.
I have sailed development classes most of my life, so I am well used to what happens. In one class, 2 weeks before the nationals everybody said I had the fastest boat and was a favourite to win. I personally thought the event was mine to lose, until somebody turned up with a new boat to a new design and won every race. But I would argue that is completely different from what is going on now with the A.
What we are now seeing isn't s step change in design, but a step change in the way we sail the boats and the skills needed to sail them. With the current rules and foiling, we are going from a boat that all can sail reasonably competitively to one that needs a whole new skill set, one that I think many won't pick up or be bothered to try to master. I mean no disrespect to you by the following, but do you aggressively steer from the wire downwind in all conditions? Because that is where the class is headed. The front runners have barely scratched the surface, having done relatively little training (the moth guys train non stop!). Landy and Scott are looking good because there are only a few foiling and the picture is further cliouded by gear failures (although Landy does steer aggressively from the wire and I suspect will make the transition). Now imagine next year if the likes of Steve Brayshaw, Adam Beattie, Demon, Jack Benson and other younger members of the class who I have forgotten move on to boats that foil and put the time in. Suddenly, I think we will see a great sailor like Scott not even in the top 10.
Then look at you and I as examples. While I am probably delusional enough to hope that my Moth foiling experience will help, the reality is that the odds are very much against us with this new foiling. Given the boats as we have been racing them (non foiling), we would have liked to believe that on any day, there was a chance we could get our act together enough to be up there, I have seen you have your moments. Those will be gone. Then look at all the other people sailing the boats of our generation who are competitive. I am not being disrespectful, but we simply no longer have the speed and agility for these foilers, but on the non foiling boats our limitations could be overcome enough to make us think we could still compete.
Not only do we need to be significantly more agile and fitter, but we also will need to put up with more pain. An A with C boards and winglets on the rudder is beautifully mannered. Even without winglets, I have capsized a total of 4 times since I bought the boat and recently sailed on lake Macquarie in 25 knots and never felt I was going over. I know that once I try foiling these boats, all that changes and crashes hurt - the older we get the longer it takes to recover. I cannot remember seeing you ever capsize, but how would you like to do so 2 or 3 times a race in say 18-20 knots?
When I bought an A, I believed that I had bought a boat that I would be able to sail well past retirement and, on a good day, still give the whippersnappers a run for their money. All the changes you highlighted that have happened before wouldn't have changed that. This step change is a whole new game and I don't see that as a possibility any more. That can be changed 2 ways. First, regulate against foiling or second, change the rules to make foiling easier. I am now in favour of the second, because I think there is no going back.
Seriously how can the possibility of foiling be killing the class, do you think the results would be any different if Glenn or the other pro's were sailing with C foils? if an amateur can still get top five or so on a standard DNA or Exploder, do you really think you can do any better than this?
And if you think A class sales are dead in Australia have a look at the wider yachting market, the traditional yacht racing market around 40ft has collapsed and try selling a second hand yacht.
A's have always been relatively expensive to get into, but even with the changes we have been through in the period I have sailed one the ongoing cost of ownership is less than a lot of other classes.
And if you think A class sales are dead in Australia have a look at the wider yachting market, the traditional yacht racing market around 40ft has collapsed and try selling a second hand yacht.
A's have always been relatively expensive to get into, but even with the changes we have been through in the period I have sailed one the ongoing cost of ownership is less than a lot of other classes.
SimonN
Super Anarchist
I've just checked the figures on a new DNA and get to $46,000. I should add that we were looking at the cost of getting into the class so we included a trailer and a set of wheels as anybody getting into the class will need them I am not sure the price of an Exploder, but to be under $40,000 a platform needs to cost less than $12,000. I also reran the numbers on the nikita and I was wrong. The true cost, including trailer and wheels, is nearly $59,000 
Now, if we built boats over here, we have a very different situation. Part of that cost problem is caused by having to import our boats.
Now, if we built boats over here, we have a very different situation. Part of that cost problem is caused by having to import our boats.
SCARECROW
Super Anarchist
List price on the exploder is Euro12K including rudders, boards, traveller, tramp etc. What's a rig and sail worth?
Terry Hollis
Super Anarchist
These interviews with Tuke Burling and Davies after day 2 are interesting from a foiling point of view ..
http://www.sai1-world.com/USA/Kaenon-Interviews:-A---Class-Worlds-with-Burling,-Tuke-and-Davies/
http://www.sai1-world.com/USA/Kaenon-Interviews:-A---Class-Worlds-with-Burling,-Tuke-and-Davies/
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Scarecrow,
After you buy Euro's it converts to about $20k plus freight around $3-4K Rig and sails $10k and then you get to pay all this money and wait 3 months for your boat to turn up.
Then you hope you are dealing with reputable people and send what you have ordered and paid for, the reality is they have your money and never respond to e-mails. This is probably why people hesitate to purchase new boats.
After you buy Euro's it converts to about $20k plus freight around $3-4K Rig and sails $10k and then you get to pay all this money and wait 3 months for your boat to turn up.
Then you hope you are dealing with reputable people and send what you have ordered and paid for, the reality is they have your money and never respond to e-mails. This is probably why people hesitate to purchase new boats.
1 we aren't administering the class for geriatrics or pre geriatrics as we are. Bring on the development. 2 Just did a survey on the bus back from southern spars about the cost of a DNA on AUS from those who know. On the water no other shit 40k. Exploder about 6k cheaper. No idea about Nikita
SimonN
Super Anarchist
So we are arguing about $1000! The debate we had at the nationals is that you cannot consider the price of the boat without considering everything you need. When I came into the class, I couldn't buy a boat without a trailer or beach wheels because then I couldn't take it anywhere or launch! And I haven't considered a cover, because people have different views on what they want. So if I am new into the class, I need to spend by your figures $45,000 on a DNA. My figure of $46,000 is based on what rate I could really get at the bank today for that amount of money. 4 years ago, when I joined the class, I could have bought a full set up new for about $37,000.
As for your comment about administering the class for geriatrics and pre geriatrics, surely we administer the class for the people who sail them. What do you think the average age is? Over 40? and I bet that half the fleet is over 50. Unless you can get the over 50's to agree to things, you stand no chance of getting things through a class vote. It is that group who hold the power in the class.
I find it funny that you say bring on development, because you seem to be arguing against it by retaining the status quo. I say bring on development, because you cannot go back to a non foiling era, but if we don't have rules that allows accessible foiling, we are in deep trouble. It's crazy that because of our rules, a Moth is easier to foil than an A Class and probably crashes less. If we get the rules right, the boats will be fantastic to sail and it won't break the bank. Leave it as it is, or get rule changes wrong, and the boats become a pig to sail and cost too much.
As for your comment about administering the class for geriatrics and pre geriatrics, surely we administer the class for the people who sail them. What do you think the average age is? Over 40? and I bet that half the fleet is over 50. Unless you can get the over 50's to agree to things, you stand no chance of getting things through a class vote. It is that group who hold the power in the class.
I find it funny that you say bring on development, because you seem to be arguing against it by retaining the status quo. I say bring on development, because you cannot go back to a non foiling era, but if we don't have rules that allows accessible foiling, we are in deep trouble. It's crazy that because of our rules, a Moth is easier to foil than an A Class and probably crashes less. If we get the rules right, the boats will be fantastic to sail and it won't break the bank. Leave it as it is, or get rule changes wrong, and the boats become a pig to sail and cost too much.
I'm not arguing for anything. The members have decided. It is now time to move on in real time and not speculate on what could have been. In other words, go sailing.
WetnWild is absolutely right. The vote failed because it was a bad proposition(s) and it is not demonstrated that a foiling a class is feasible, faster or affordable. Wtf is wrong with that decision?
From what I can see from the regatta, the only people going fast foiling would be in front with conventional c boards in any case, and they are only one breakage/flip away from disaster and have yet to prove superior speed in light conditions.
There will be incremental improvements, and someone will figure out an optimal configuration within the rules. The current configuration won't last because it is just too unstable. So that's a development class as it has always been.
In the meantime, those who want to foil should build something that foils and convince the rest of the fleet. And don't point me to some other class that's managed it for 5 sec, or with a crew, or is wildly impractical - I want to see a demonstration of something that works well that just requires a sensible tweaking of the A class box rule to make it legal.
Put that to the vote. In the meantime, enjoy what we all have.
From what I can see from the regatta, the only people going fast foiling would be in front with conventional c boards in any case, and they are only one breakage/flip away from disaster and have yet to prove superior speed in light conditions.
There will be incremental improvements, and someone will figure out an optimal configuration within the rules. The current configuration won't last because it is just too unstable. So that's a development class as it has always been.
In the meantime, those who want to foil should build something that foils and convince the rest of the fleet. And don't point me to some other class that's managed it for 5 sec, or with a crew, or is wildly impractical - I want to see a demonstration of something that works well that just requires a sensible tweaking of the A class box rule to make it legal.
Put that to the vote. In the meantime, enjoy what we all have.
"I want to see a demonstration of something that works well that just requires a sensible tweaking of the A class box rule to make it legal."
How about keeping the 750mm rule but allowing wands or other automated mechanical controls. Even if the AC gurus think their system is faster, the moth system will be safter and easier for the geriatrics. I know because I am one.
How about keeping the 750mm rule but allowing wands or other automated mechanical controls. Even if the AC gurus think their system is faster, the moth system will be safter and easier for the geriatrics. I know because I am one.
Somehow that link didn't work for me...
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Kaenon-Interviews:-A---Class-Worlds-with-Ray-Davies-and-Glenn-Ashby/119260
