New ZIM ILCA's

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Every colleague of mine who has traveled there even briefly comes homecwith lung damage. And dtories about supervision.

Thishas nothing to do with worldview. It is simply reality.

Btw Chinese domestic stuff seems to work better than the schlock we end up with. Hmmm, I wonder why???
When I travelled to China, I did not get lung damage. Every colleague and friend of mine, including some who lived in China for years, did not get lung damage. The overwhelming majority of Chinese locals do not get lung damage.

There are many countries in the world (most?) where people get lung damage because of poor pollution control, including China, USA, New Zealand and many many more.

With manufacturers I have been involved with, there were no differences between locally supplied products and those exported. The same batches of products were shipped on the basis of the time the order was placed, not location. All products were subjected to the same QC standards.

Fastyacht, your bigotry is showing. Your comment above has everything to do with your worldview.

Again, the best answer to bigotry is never more bigotry.

 
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fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
When I travelled to China, I did not get lung damage. Every colleague and friend of mine, including some who lived in China for years, did not get lung damage. The overwhelming majority of Chinese locals do not get lung damage.

There are many countries in the world (most?) where people get lung damage because of poor pollution control, including China, USA, New Zealand and many many more.

With manufacturers I have been involved with, there were no differences between locally supplied products and those exported. The same batches of products were shipped on the basis of the time the order was placed, not location. All products were subjected to the same QC standards.

Fastyacht, your bigotry is showing. Your comment above has everything to do with your worldview.

Again, the best answer to bigotry is never more bigotry.
Dude, you are making shit up. Reality is not bigotry. Chinese policy is not Chinese persons. I know the difference.

What I can tell you is that Chinese products jave a quality assurance problem. You wantvto pretend not, fine but dont you dare call me a Bigit because I recognize facts.

Go talk to people imvolved in sourcing safety criticsl parts and sustems and how difficult that id in Choma, for Americans. Go look at the lithium battery fires of Chinese skateboards. Go talk to marine electrical component people. This is not bigoytry.

Glad you didnt get sick over there. Millions do. Pretending air quality in nChinese infustrial cities is st all comparable to

U.S. now is just laughable. We exported our indutrial base to them!

Sheesh.

Lovr the name calling, Bruce. You are one annoying person.

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
So Martin: you disagree that the Chinese model is diffetent?

You feel it is nit important to have your own Q/A peopke onsite?

Let us hear it.

How many Chinese brands are in common consumption? A few. Oh and Thinkpad was an IBM brandnsme...before Lenovo ..haha.

Mr Toyoda and Mr. Hyundai put their names on stuff. You know, like Mr  Ford and Mr. Bertram. Where is the Chinese major multinational with a name? Interesting problem.

 
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Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Dude, you are making shit up. Reality is not bigotry. Chinese policy is not Chinese persons. I know the difference.
What exactly am I making up?

Yes, Chinese policy is not the Chinese people. Since you announced to everyone that, may I take this opportunity in congratulating you for 'knowing the difference'. Similarly, other countries' policies do not represent the will of the people. A good example of this is gun control policies in the US.

Reality? Actually, 'the reality' in this case is you holding a stereotype against Chinese manufacturers because they are Chinese.  

What I can tell you is that Chinese products jave a quality assurance problem. You wantvto pretend not, fine but dont you dare call me a Bigit because I recognize facts.
I'm not denying that some Chinese manufacturers do. So do manufacturers in most countries I am aware of, including (but not limited to) the US, and New Zealand - actually everywhere there are manufacturers.

Go talk to people imvolved in sourcing safety criticsl parts and sustems and how difficult that id in Choma, for Americans. Go look at the lithium battery fires of Chinese skateboards. Go talk to marine electrical component people. This is not bigoytry.
I'm not denying that is the case. The largest manufacturer of Lithium batteries (20%+) is Panasonic, and their main manufacturing plant is in Indonesia. In order to get to the bottom of your story, we would need more details - HOWEVER - whatever the result of such an investigation, because some manufacturers make poor products does not justify making a stereotype against other manufacturers because 'they are in China' as you did fastyacht.

Your prejudicial statements against a specific ILCA manufacturer because they are Chinese is textbook bigotry.

Glad you didnt get sick over there. Millions do. Pretending air quality in nChinese infustrial cities is st all comparable to

U.S. now is just laughable. We exported our indutrial base to them!

Sheesh.

Lovr the name calling, Bruce. You are one annoying person.
Air quality. The worst polluted city in China is Baoding. There are 18 cities in the world (not in China) which have worse pollution. Fastyacht, not only can people compare the air quality of Chinese cities with cities (including the US), it is regularly done. The US does not have a city in the worst 500 cities in the world. That being said, pollution control in China is improving, and in recent years (pre Covid), it is getting worse in the US. Mind you, China does have many times the population of the US, is larger economically than the US and as you point out, far more manufacturing.

---

Sheesh alright! Now would that be the sound of air pollutants being emitted in the air? Of the response of people to my response to your textbook bigotry? You know how bad I can get Fastyacht. :)  

---

To be clear, I did not call you a bigot, I inferred that what you said was an example of bigotry.

I agree, I can be very very annoying to people who carry prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. In this case you have done so multiple times. For some reason I feel like making word salad for lunch.

 

Alan Crawford

Super Anarchist
1,372
641
Bozeman, Montana
China is a very interesting place to travel / work. I have been traveling and working in China since 1999. I cannot remember the number of trips I've made. Most are to the far reaches of the country and all have been positive. Everyone I know who routinely goes to China has a difference experience so experiences reported here are all valid. Yes, depending on the industry you have to be very careful with regards to correct following of procedures. Yes, the large cities can have really polluted air but based on my first-hand observations, that is getting better. I do not know anyone who has come home with lung damage. I had one bad food experience in 20+ years. My experience with working with many, many Chinese friends and colleagues over the years has been very positive. As for the CCP, that's where the problems are with regards to policy. I would not want to live in China but routine visits - no problem and I look forward to resumption of travel post covid.

And, yes, @Wess, if a Chinese built Laser / ILCA was the offering of my local dealer I would buy one versus paying more to get one from a more remote place. Based on @RobbieB report here, the boats are fine with happy new owners. Of course I would prefer a US built ILCA / Laser but that's not in the cards right now. That said, I am not in the market for a ILCA / Laser. Just like I would prefer a US built iPhone or Mac. 

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
What exactly am I making up?

Yes, Chinese policy is not the Chinese people. Since you announced to everyone that, may I take this opportunity in congratulating you for 'knowing the difference'. Similarly, other countries' policies do not represent the will of the people. A good example of this is gun control policies in the US.

Reality? Actually, 'the reality' in this case is you holding a stereotype against Chinese manufacturers because they are Chinese.  

I'm not denying that some Chinese manufacturers do. So do manufacturers in most countries I am aware of, including (but not limited to) the US, and New Zealand - actually everywhere there are manufacturers.

I'm not denying that is the case. The largest manufacturer of Lithium batteries (20%+) is Panasonic, and their main manufacturing plant is in Indonesia. In order to get to the bottom of your story, we would need more details - HOWEVER - whatever the result of such an investigation, because some manufacturers make poor products does not justify making a stereotype against other manufacturers because 'they are in China' as you did fastyacht.

Your prejudicial statements against a specific ILCA manufacturer because they are Chinese is textbook bigotry.

Air quality. The worst polluted city in China is Baoding. There are 18 cities in the world (not in China) which have worse pollution. Fastyacht, not only can people compare the air quality of Chinese cities with cities (including the US), it is regularly done. The US does not have a city in the worst 500 cities in the world. That being said, pollution control in China is improving, and in recent years (pre Covid), it is getting worse in the US. Mind you, China does have many times the population of the US, is larger economically than the US and as you point out, far more manufacturing.

---

Sheesh alright! Now would that be the sound of air pollutants being emitted in the air? Of the response of people to my response to your textbook bigotry? You know how bad I can get Fastyacht. :)  

---

To be clear, I did not call you a bigot, I inferred that what you said was an example of bigotry.

I agree, I can be very very annoying to people who carry prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. In this case you have done so multiple times. For some reason I feel like making word salad for lunch.
Go fuck yourself, Bruce.

I did not disparage the chinese laser maker directly. Go ready my posts again. I never even mentioned them. But you DID call me a bigot. So again, go fuck yourself.

I have Chinese friends who escaped the Cultural Destruction--who were my classmates. I have graduate school classmates from China--some committed Communists, others who got the fuck out and became Americans.I have serious issues with the Communist party control of that country--AND its effect on the business climate. I'm sure you have even more Chinese contacts in China. That's great. But you called me a bigot. So again fuck you.

 
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martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,168
1,044
Miami
There's a lot of bigotry here yeah.

There are different stages to industrialization, and also to pollution. We are not too far in time from pollution-heavy pictures of LA and Detroit, and the acid rain years across the USA. And low quality car manufacturers, on US soil yes. But, nothing fundamentally wrong about US manufacturing, lessons were learned and things got better. Japan started at the low quality end of the spectrum and walked its way up remarkably quickly.

Chinese manufacturing exists all across the range, perhaps because it's a large country (unlike, say, Japan). Some regions "skill up" ahead of others. And it's getting better, apace. Pollution is bad in some cities, but they are getting better, much better and on some fronts are clearly ahead. Landing in Shanghai, take a moment to look outside the window on your airplane and tell me about the windfarms you see.

On politics, I agree with you. But I don't let that become a cover for outright bs and bigotry.

This will be my last post on the xenophobia topic. Take care y'all.

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
LOL you didn't answer the question about corporate naming versus shopping out. Pollution--whatever. There is nothing bigoted about pointing out stuff that is real. This goes for corporate structure and how Chinese companies simply do not exist in the same way that Japanese and Korean ones existed 20 years after WWII....The Chinese business presence is distinctly different from that path. Again, pointing this out is not bigoted. And being untrusting of a Communist government, well, if you call that bigotry, then I guess every human who prefers to live as a a member of a free society is a bigot.  And, finally, merely saying BIGOT! does not make it true. So what the fuck?

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,168
1,044
Miami
There's chinese brands out there if you pay attention. On electronics and cellphone, definitely. Not at the top end of the market, except in specific niches.

If you get out of USA and EU, you'll see a lot more chinese brands in the mainstream market. 

Countries are not unified, they produce stuff in a range of qualities. Big countries, even moreso. 

"Anything from xxx country is crap" is always definitely uninformed bs. Go get a mirror.

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,168
1,044
Miami
Cherry-picking stuff that's a decade old isn't making a strong argument, is it? Top results in google for your question are a lot more enlightening. 

Troll is as troll does. Have a good one!

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
Cherry-picking stuff that's a decade old isn't making a strong argument, is it? Top results in google for your question are a lot more enlightening. 

Troll is as troll does. Have a good one!
No cherry picking dude. Search click. Yeah old. That is the point-my observation is apparently not original and not new. That was theh top google result. Of course your results will not match mine. Google fishbowl effect.

So now bigot, and troll.

Wow. Never expected this but whatever.

 
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Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
Go fuck yourself, Bruce.
Excellent fastyacht, you want to play.

I did not disparage the chinese laser maker directly.
No you didn't. Amusingly, nobody has accused you of doing that. It is a bit funny, because just earlier you accused me of making up stuff. What you just did (accusing someone of what you do yourself) psychologists call projection. :)  

Go ready my posts again. I never even mentioned them.
Yes, it seems that 'we' are having trouble with accuracy here. So let's take it from the top:

I am prejudiced against pretty much anything made in China. 
Actually, there are several unsavoury examples, including:

The Chinese international business model is unlike anyvother. It is one huge job shop. Inless you put yoir people in there, you will get abdolute shit. Ask Apple about that.
...and there are other statements.

But you DID call me a bigot. So again, go fuck yourself.
Excellent that you are saying that I did. Quote me. I put to you that you are making that up. Calling you on your BS fastyacht.

Was it your intention to promote yourself as a purveyor of mistruths? If yes, job well done.

I have Chinese friends
...and therefore you can't engage in bigotry? 

who escaped the Cultural Destruction--who were my classmates. I have graduate school classmates from China--some committed Communists, others who got the fuck out and became Americans.
Poor blighters. Went from one country that has poor human rights to another country that has limited freedoms and a compromised democracy. Hope they have survived their 'freedom'.

I have serious issues with the Communist party control of that country--AND its effect on the business climate. I'm sure you have even more Chinese contacts in China. That's great.
Do you honestly think your statements, your claim to hold stereotypes (which I believe) can be resolved or helped in any way by a pissing contest? 

LOL you didn't answer the question about corporate naming versus shopping out. Pollution--whatever. There is nothing bigoted about pointing out stuff that is real.
That depends how you point out stuff that is real. 

This goes for corporate structure and how Chinese companies simply do not exist in the same way that Japanese and Korean ones existed 20 years after WWII....The Chinese business presence is distinctly different from that path. Again, pointing this out is not bigoted.
Nobody said it was.

And being untrusting of a Communist government, well, if you call that bigotry, then I guess every human who prefers to live as a a member of a free society is a bigot.
Nobody said it was fastyacht. You are fighting shadows.

Now you are talking about freedom in the US. The US does not have a free society. Yes, it is 'more free' than China, but not as free as other countries. Perhaps you might choose one day to live in a country which has greater freedoms than the US? Maybe you already have?

  And, finally, merely saying BIGOT! does not make it true. So what the fuck?
I didn't. I inferred that the statement you made was one of textbook bigotry. I explained how. Above is the definition of bigotry. Here is is again for your reference:

image.png

But you called me a bigot. So again fuck you.
Actually, let's consider that I called you a bigot, which is stretching the truth. In fact, by the same measure, when you said:

I am prejudiced against pretty much anything made in China. 
...you already called yourself one. (Definitions are important). I would invite you to go fornicate with yourself, however why would I suggest you what you are clearly already doing?

Discussing bigotry, freedom and related topics is one of my favorite pastimes.  

 

fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
Old means not current.

Anyone can open an incognito window and google for "chinese brands". 
That is notvwhat i did. I searched my specidic question, why are chinese companies not good at branding?

Also incognito iscalso in the foshbowl  google "alias"s the sessions

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,168
1,044
Miami
That is notvwhat i did. I searched my specidic question, why are chinese companies not good at branding?

Also incognito iscalso in the foshbowl  google "alias"s the sessions
LOL. Ask a biased question, and get a mirror of yourself. It always works.

Ask a neutral question instead and learn something about the world.

Use a different web browser, computer, or whatever. Use duckduckgo. Be my guest.

Good place to leave this conversation.

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,532
753
Sydney ex London
There’s a major misconception about Chinese brands. They have some of the biggest and widest recognised brands but many of those brands don’t operate outside of China. And why would you when that one market gives you access to nearly 20% of the world’s population. 
 

and in response to Wess’s challenge, I have owned 2 very high performance, technically advance boats (Moths) that were built in China and which were of the highest quality. If I was in the market for a new ILCA, I would buy a Zim, made in China boat without hesitation, one one condition- it is the cheapest available, because I cannot see any other way of deciding which builder to buy from.

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,161
1,549
Sydney mostly
Simon Nelson, what a perfect answer, especially for a POM!

Can't believe we are agreeing on these things.

Must be getting old,

But no where near as old and out of touch as others on this thread.

                     jB

 




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