New ZIM ILCA's

[Wess]

Wess was at the capitol riots

LOL, well I was in the area. 

 

[Wess]

Back to sailing and specifically the ZIM ILCA's ,I wonder if by having an established ILCA builder in China means that some of those boats find their way to the growing middle class in China and will help grow our overall sport?

There is no doubt that is Tracey's intent. He pretty much posted just that if I recall correctly.

 

[JulianB]

Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!

 

[JulianB]

Oh, I should probably add, I have been in everyone one of these people's factories with the exception of Devoti.

I actually find it extremely amusing that they are all effectively "9er" factories, again with the exception of Devoti and now PSA.

But Ovington, Nautivela, Zou, Rio Techna, Element6 and PSJ all have some level of 9er involvement be it tooling or stocking, as dose ZIM (USA) and as did the old PSI (2000) & PSA.

So I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that I would be comfortable buying a ILCA of any of them, and that those "9er" people will be striving to minimise variations rather than maximise because that has been truly successful with the 9er programs.    I believe they have been picked, in part, for that reason.

                         jB

 

[tillerman]

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!

Sounds like somebody is going to be receiving a 20 ton surprise from China this weekend.



 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-rocket-debris-set-hit-earth-weekend-no-one-knows-n1266669S

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

There is something about an authoritarian government that can will put a citizen in jail on made up charges should they speak poorly about the government.  That will make even a billionaire disappear for a while should they not toe the government's politics.  That will stamp out a pre-existing democracy because such a method of governance challenges their hold on power.  That will throw into internment camps, millions of citizens because they are not of the right ethnicity.  That will force permanent birth control on the female citizens of that ethnicity.  That sometimes makes individuals of the wrong ethnicity just disappear.  That will reach out to what is an independent nation with weapons of war and directly threaten future invasion regardless of the rights and desires of the people of that country.  That ignores internal law and treaties on what bodies of water are and are not under their jurisdiction and again threaten war over it.

You do not have to be xenophobic to find doing business with China unethical.  China's ability to make quality or crap products are not the problem.  The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

There is something about an authoritarian government that can will put a citizen in jail on made up charges should they speak poorly about the government. 

Are you speaking about China or the US or both?

You do not have to be xenophobic to find doing business with China unethical.  China's ability to make quality or crap products are not the problem.  The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

In your view, do you think there is a case to not do business with the US on the basis of ethics?

Actually, my country, New Zealand, is not problem free. How about not doing business with New Zealand?

Above, I am being deliberately testy: my questions are designed to promote deeper thinking. 

My preference is to build bridges, rather than promote division. But always speak up in a way that does not promote bigotry or racism. (My tolerance for statements which are textbook bigotry or racism is very low.)

The challenge is about to effect change for the better - China, the US and yes, New Zealand - all have products which are made in a more ethical way than others.

ILCA's approval of Zim, is an example of doing business in China. In my view there will be consequently a growth in sailing ILCA dinghies in China, and greater interactions with Chinese nationals with people from other countries - in a good way! 

 

[martin 'hoff]

The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

Hey, we can agree with sober, clear statements. The world did with apartheid era South Africa, and with segregation era USA.

But the xenophobic statements feed the monster of stochastic terrorism: the more people blab "chinese crap", "chinese virus" and that kind of stuff, the more violence you see against anyone who looks asian or is actually chinese.

It's an odd thing but human crowds... pick your words carefully, save lives.

 

[martin 'hoff]

Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

Talking smack like that just feeds hateful chatter and... people hear normalized hateful chatter, feel authorized to hate, and hate crime rises. A forum full of "chinese crap" blabber ends up in real world violence against someone.

Your caveman references are spot on.

And, not to worry. I've worked in China. I'm not on the market for an ILCA but the boats I own I'm sure have chinese parts. The gopro and speedpuck do. All the computers and electronics as well.

Oh and thank you. Honored to be on the same list as Julian.

 

[Bill5]

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

I'm thinking a more accurate statement is "flies to shit". I have certainly been guilty of being a fly to a lot of your shit. My bad. 

 

[jimx]

Some of my favorite memories was Can Am Sailcraft in Cambridge, MA.

Oh man - every excuse to go to CanAm. At some point they had this single-handed as assym-spin maybe Russian? beautiful machine sitting in the shop and we’d just go drool.

 

[jimx]

I've had the opposite experience with Zims. Their 420s (c and z) are mediocre at best in terms of build quality

I wonder if you could elaborate on this? What is experience? 

 

[Bill5]

Zim Club 420s and Optis at our club have been very good. 

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

Are you speaking about China or the US or both?

In your view, do you think there is a case to not do business with the US on the basis of ethics?

Actually, my country, New Zealand, is not problem free. How about not doing business with New Zealand?

Above, I am being deliberately testy: my questions are designed to promote deeper thinking. 

My preference is to build bridges, rather than promote division. But always speak up in a way that does not promote bigotry or racism. (My tolerance for statements which are textbook bigotry or racism is very low.)

The challenge is about to effect change for the better - China, the US and yes, New Zealand - all have products which are made in a more ethical way than others.

ILCA's approval of Zim, is an example of doing business in China. In my view there will be consequently a growth in sailing ILCA dinghies in China, and greater interactions with Chinese nationals with people from other countries - in a good way! 

I am 100% against American adventurism and exceptionalism and in the companies I have help found and the relationships necessary to grow those businesses, there were opportunities that were turned down due to what I viewed as unethical behavior and what I would not support.  Staying far away from the U.Sl Department of Defense during the war in Iraq cost millions.  In the 00's defense money in the DC area sloshed around like a keg of beer.  But not taking those business opportunities and thus supporting illegal wars was the correct action.  I support my country and have helped create hundreds of high paying jobs that pay taxes, I believe that is also patriotism. But I did not support my government when it illegally invaded another country, nor did I support the government during the last four years.

But here's the difference.  I can say almost anything I want about my government.  I can choose to not do business with it.  I can publicly declare that it has acted illegally and should be held to international norms and that the leaders forcing the country into supporting illegal should face jail time.  And I will not be arrested, disappeared, or worse.  Can anyone in China say the same?  There are no internment camps in the U.S. or New Zealand full of people that the government does not like.  Can China say the same?  China is not like most other countries because it is repressive and authoritarian and literally kills its own citizens when they fail to beheace as the government demands. This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.  Our countries have problems, especially the U.S. with our failure to correct centuries of racial hatred, but we are very far from what China is.

 

[[email protected]]

Thats some epic thread drift right there.  I agree with a lot of what you said.  But with all due respect, America has something far worse than internment camps (at least worse than the American west internment camps of the 1940's), and theyre called prisons, including for-profit prisons. I will never sing the praises of America while my brethren are still locked up for years for possessing a harmless herb, for example.  and America also does lock up people up quite often for speaking truth to power– See Florida/Rebekah Jones or Reality Winner.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

But here's the difference.  I can say almost anything I want about my government.  I can choose to not do business with it.  I can publicly declare that it has acted illegally and should be held to international norms and that the leaders forcing the country into supporting illegal should face jail time.

Yes, according to the Freedom report the US is near the very top in the world with freedom of expression and information. Only a few countries rate higher.

This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.

You have a nice garden and your neighbours do not. Bleating about your neighbour's weeds has what effect? Some neighbours may react by deliberately growing more weeds.

The viewpoint that my garden which has a few weeds and you need to fix yours because it is really weedy is reductionist and in my view ineffective. We all end up talking about talking about pulling each other's weeds - rather than making changes to the design of the garden. (Aka blowing smoke up eachothers' asses.)

The very US viewpoint of criticizing China's domestic policies is somewhat undone by the existence of Guantanamo Bay detention camp the use of drones through to its own struggles with democracy. Technically, you are correct in that the US Government (mostly) does not engage in the same authoritarianism and (mostly) respects international norms within its own borders. Outside its borders, the US is authoritarian, routinely and unilaterally kills people without a trial or due process.

China is not like most other countries because it is repressive and authoritarian and literally kills its own citizens when they fail to beheace as the government demands. This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.

China does not have a monopoly on repression, or the taking of people's lives. The cosy club the US and to a lesser extent New Zealand belong to - kill people in other countries in the name of war, more recently in the name of the 'war or terror', and have directly supported the killing by other countries (eg Yemen). Domestically and internationally, the US and NZ both have significant improvements to make.

The quiet revolution that China has been experiencing since Mao's cultural revolution has lead to improvements. Mostly since 1978 with financial reforms (eg the lifting of price controls, 1985), since 2001 with China's entry into the WTO, since 2008, when China first entered into a trade agreement (with NZ), this has accelerated.

The building of bridges had proved to be far more effective than say the post world war two Mccarthyism - playing hardball with a tough nut that China still is has resulted in some very poor outcomes.

Do not mistake the building of bridges as a failure to have a deep commitment against authoritarianism, or as a commitment to freedom.

As such, I am supportive of ILCA's appointing builders in China and Thailand.

 

[Bill5]

I have no problem buying an ILCA made in China. According to people that actually know what they are talking about, a quality product can be expected. I am sure there are thousands of quality businesses and millions of wonderful people in China. But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting. No need to come back with “Ya, but what about (insert nation here)”. Most countries have crosses to bear, but not like China. It’ll be shit for decades to come. And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.

Nobody above said that they were.

Yet as a consequence, metaphorical bridges are being built.

But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting.

Sorry Bill, that is a bit rich, and incorrect about the environmental issues. It is offensive to suggest that China is still crawling out of the dark ages - actually, we all are. The pandemic should be a lesson in humility - particularly for the UK and US - please learn it. Yes, there are human rights issues in China for sure. In my view spitting vitriol won't get you very far.

 

[Bill5]

Nobody above said that they were.

Yet as a consequence, metaphorical bridges are being built.

Sorry Bill, that is a bit rich, and incorrect about the environmental issues. It is offensive to suggest that China is still crawling out of the dark ages - actually, we all are. The pandemic should be a lesson in humility - particularly for the UK and US - please learn it. Yes, there are human rights issues in China for sure. In my view spitting vitriol won't get you very far.

I am not trying to get very far. Just sharing my thoughts. 

 

[Bruce Hudson]

I am not trying to get very far. Just sharing my thoughts. 

Interesting. Would the US and UK also be considered by you as nations are "dumpster fires" in relation to the pandemic?

'Just' asking a question.

---

(I apologize to everyone other than Bill for any offense caused by adapting Bill's thoughts to ask a question).