New ZIM ILCA's

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
3,251
846
New Zealand
My home country is a dumpster fire in terms of the pandemic. An embarrassment. 
I emphatically apologize for any offense caused by my approach above.

(It is painful for me with friends and family being in your metaphorical dumpster fire).

My hope is that much distance is put between humanity and any such metaphorical dumpster fires. The question is equally how to fight fires both present and future.

 

Bill5

Right now
2,812
2,349
Western Canada
I emphatically apologize for any offense caused by my approach above.

(It is painful for me with friends and family being in your metaphorical dumpster fire).

My hope is that much distance is put between humanity and any such metaphorical dumpster fires. The question is equally how to fight fires both present and future.
I am not offended at all! It is what it is. No candy coating. And if it is the turn of phrase that offends, well, that’s your issue.

Let’s talk about Zim ILCAs, of which I would not hesitate to purchase and support my local dealer. No politics in my decision.

 

spankoka

Super Anarchist
It seems like it is the fundamental nature of the PRC that the policy is Mandarin speaking ethnically Han supremacy. Just look at the dearth of Cantonese language media in the PRC. 

 

RobbieB

Super Anarchist
3,157
1,651
Charleston, SC
I have no problem buying an ILCA made in China. According to people that actually know what they are talking about, a quality product can be expected. I am sure there are thousands of quality businesses and millions of wonderful people in China. But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting. No need to come back with “Ya, but what about (insert nation here)”. Most countries have crosses to bear, but not like China. It’ll be shit for decades to come. And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.
As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,171
1,048
Miami
As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...
Hot chines on that outdoor jacuzzi...

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,431
2,670
Rhode Island
As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...
Maybe you can persuade them to build ILCAs?

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
A caveman IS doing it  :D
That one got a laugh out of me for sure.  Nice job.

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!
So we at least share the more than one sail thing... more than one hull too LOL.  We just happen to disagree re new rigs for Lasers and Chinese commodity products and the political system from which they are generated).

That one got a laugh out of me too.  I indeed would have purchased from them - or Fulcrum - if they had produced Lasers.  I buy local, non-corporate USA whenever possible. And China last. Period.

And so many Saturday and Sunday posts; damn!  Don't you guys sail?  Have a life???  I mean SA is a fun comedic diversion during a workday but beyond that??

And in conclusion have ANY of you bought a Chinese ILCA yet (and not found anything wrong with it)?  Anyone??

 
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spankoka

Super Anarchist
I don't know, I think there is a kind of bigotry of low expectations with the PRC. The other China as in Taiwan has gone from fascist dictatorship to liberal democracy but still gets treated as a pariah nation. 

 

craigiri

Super Anarchist
8,434
143
Sarasota - W. MA.
Beside all the similar experience (I imported some stuff I invented from China), I have just one example which may educate. It is proof positive of Chinese superiority. Yes, y'all heard that right. It's as if you never listen to the radio and hear the interview with the midwest machine shops looking for employees - where 1/2 of them fail drug tests!  Once you get past the meth and not showing up and lack of a work ethic (here), then you have to get to the normal stuff like how good they are at their job! 

Let's not act as if the American mid-level factory worker is of some kind of super high quality.

My more recent intimate involvement with Chinese brilliance was in the Drone (consumer flying camera) business. A one person startup there - 100% Chinese - became a multi-billion dollar international company that is so far ahead of the USA/Europe, etc. that we cannot even compare them. I watched as some Silicon Valley bros along with 120 million in free money (from well known VC's) claimed they could make something competitive. I could write a book on it - but suffice it to say more of that money went up their noses than into a decent product - it failed in every possible way...so badly that I cannot think of anything to compare it to. A couple other American companies (GoPro) gave it a shot - same deal, "bros" talking in another language (Bro English) and telling us how they were going to do it. Complete fail. The "hip" American company did all the wrong things - lied, misled, conned, faked - you know, the (current) American Way!

These are technically complicated products. A Pentagon connection told me "We couldn't build these for 5 million dollars each" - he was speaking about a $1K drone. He was also telling the truth. We're not talking one-off luck. Product after product, year after year - as close to perfection as one can imagine and, along with that, taking and implementing feedback like I've never seen in any American company. 

Long story - not sailboats, but stuff that flies. Likely the most technical consumer product in existence. The stuff is so near-perfect that they should put them in a Museum.  Oh, not a single American in the C-Suite - English not spoken here. 

I consider myself lucky to have seen and watched all this in real time as I wrote books about the products and ran a large web site - did reviews and met a lot of the people associated with the enterprise. 70 hour weeks - 4am in the morning meetings if something needed done on deadline, CEO has a cot in his office - AND, a sign on the door that people without brain (most) can't come in. 

The single "Truth" in the "Chinese shit" narrative is that they truly WILL make terrible shit if you want them to (some of them). The one time that I got screwed on horrible product from China was when I worked 100% through an American Agent. When I worked directly with a factory the stuff was perfect. That's an interesting aside since I am not an engineer, designer, QA person or any of that. It was simply a matter of proper communication and not trying to screw people (as it turned out my American Agent was in the business of doing). Oh, well - 100K or more down the toilet. Aluminum castings with Bondo filler. 

Some of you desperately need to read some books. May I suggest Glass House? The Reckoning?

 

craigiri

Super Anarchist
8,434
143
Sarasota - W. MA.
I don't know, I think there is a kind of bigotry of low expectations with the PRC. The other China as in Taiwan has gone from fascist dictatorship to liberal democracy but still gets treated as a pariah nation. 
Taiwan went up the chain higher (quality, technicality) IMHO - aren't the largest and most complicated IC Fabs in the world located there? If we consider that they are the same people...which they are! Example - Mitch McConnell wife...her family is in Chinese steel, banking, shipping and government connected. In China - and Taiwan. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foremost_Group

You really can't separate the two if we are talking about some of the core people - the intelligence and, IMHO, the ideals which make their "miracles" (getting 800 million out of poverty) possible. It's not the form of Government that does that! It's ambition, work ethic, lack of being spoiled and jaded. My theory, which many might dispute, is that their lack of Fundamentalist Religion (based) and the Buddhist/Confucius foundation is superior to the current craziness of much of the rest of the world.

It means they at least start from a position of logic and reason - and true honoring of their parents and such, rather than all the strange stories many over this way base life upon (from Greed is Good to We Come from Aliens to the World being 6,000 years old and ending tomorrow). 

 
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Board skiff

Super Anarchist
1,606
672
Not so good for the Uighur population being re-educated though. Or the people of Hong Kong having the liberties reduced.  Or those who speak out against the Chinese govt. 

If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 

 
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tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,431
2,670
Rhode Island
If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 
I am sure there are good English manufacturers and Ovington may be one of them, but why take the risk when the Laser builder with the worst track record for service and quality was a company based in England, owned by a non-sailor... especially when the boat is available elsewhere from a highly reputable, sailor led business with a proven track record like Zou Inter Marine?
 

 
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Bill5

Right now
2,812
2,349
Western Canada
Not so good for the Uighur population being re-educated though. Or the people of Hong Kong having the liberties reduced.  Or those who speak out against the Chinese govt. 

If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 
I like to support the local dealer. He will have a stock of boats - ZIMs - for the first time in years. I can look at it before I buy it to check for issues. I can measure rake and even weigh it if I really want. If it leaks, I can take it back. I see the three major Canadian dinghy dealers are all selling ZIMs. At our club we have several ZIM 420s and Optis. No problems. 
I drive a GM truck, when I wear a watch it is a Timex Marathon, I don’t have a handbag, and there is a brilliant chocolatier here. I do prefer scotch to bourbon or rye but that is based on taste, not quality. Great local beer.

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,431
2,670
Rhode Island
I like to support the local dealer. He will have a stock of boats - ZIMs - for the first time in years. I can look at it before I buy it to check for issues. I can measure rake and even weigh it if I really want. If it leaks, I can take it back. I see the three major Canadian dinghy dealers are all selling ZIMs. At our club we have several ZIM 420s and Optis. No problems. 
I drive a GM truck, when I wear a watch it is a Timex Marathon, I don’t have a handbag, and there is a brilliant chocolatier here. I do prefer scotch to bourbon or rye but that is based on taste, not quality. Great local beer.
That's a good reason to buy a Zim ILCA too. Always support your local dealer, people.

Rule 27.  http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2012/04/laser-sailing-rules.html

 
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tillerman

Super Anarchist
5,431
2,670
Rhode Island
Yep. Probably 40 local craft brewers in city of 1.3 mill. And some really good ones in the Rockies. We have great barley and water in this part of the world.
It's a little known fact that the craft beer scene in China is booming. 

Wuhan, Chengdu, and Xi’an have thriving craft scenes, and productive breweries are popping up in places as far flung as Kunming  and Guiyang. 

 
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