Next Generation International Moths.

dougculnane

Member
348
0
OK Anarchists lets thrash out design ideas for improving on the present generation of Moths. The themes and ideas I would lay down for starters are:

Weight reduction.

Windage reduction.

Increase the Instability for more righting moment.

Control system refinements.

Rig improvements.

Sailing techniques.

...?

What ideas are worth trying (or trying again)?

Wing masts.

Aerodynamic wings.

Anhedral foils.

More angle on the wing bars or less.

Smaller hulls.

Shaven heads for lower windage.

Learning to sail the bloody things.

More Blogs.

Better spelling.

...?

What are the red herrings and what are the next gains to be made, or is this thread just adding to FOF?

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,602
229
Sydney
Doug,

Your list is pretty comprehensive.

The end result might look like those ice sailors who stand inside their wing sails.

Or how about lay down skipper position within the hull with full aircraft contols: pitch, roll and yaw as well as sheeting, maybe mostly automated.

My immediate next step is less hull, less wing structure, and less rigging, less windage, less weight, proof of concept protoytpe done and dispatched, serious construction maybe this year.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
Good to hear you are thinking of building again.

I too am think that at the moment less is more. Things like the tiller extension need to be reduced in diameter to save windage. It will be interesting to see what other parts of the boat can be reduced. Certainly the wings could be smaller as our seating position is more static now that control systems are better. Maybe a fairing for the sailor to hide behind is good too. However the width rule thing makes hanning most of the body out over the side inevitable. Unless there are better ideas...?

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
19
SLC, UT
What would be required to get rid of the spreaders? Do they really do that much?
In a couple weeks Bram should have a good idea if a Swift mast can hold up without spreaders. If it works well with a masthead kite, it should be fine on a Moth. You might find going to an unstayed rig with bend and flex similar to windsurfers work. The hard part is building something to hold the mast up that is as light or close to the same weight as the rigging on a current spar. It might be interesting to see what would happen with a DN style rig but then a DN will go 3X the true wind at times.

I think drag reduction is still a good area of focus. Some weight might be saved in removing things adding drag but unless someone has a line on Unobtainium, You're probably getting close to the limits of the current technology.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
What would be required to get rid of the spreaders? Do they really do that much?
I do not know. I think the masts are getting stiffer (not sure) and smaller diammeter (I think Si Payne has a new low windage mast). Getting rid of the rigging would be great but I am not sure how you could support the mast as well. Maybe we will end up like the ice yachts with the bendy mast that curves to tighten the leach...???

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
I do not know. I think the masts are getting stiffer (not sure) and smaller diammeter (I think Si Payne has a new low windage mast). Getting rid of the rigging would be great but I am not sure how you could support the mast as well. Maybe we will end up like the ice yachts with the bendy mast that curves to tighten the leach...???
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Diamond Doug Culnane-don't tell me you've given up on this "brillinat" idea(!): (sorry about the spelling)

Done.JPG

Shit.jpg

 

canstead

Anarchist
904
47
----------------------------------Diamond Doug Culnane-don't tell me you've given up on this "brillinat" idea(!): (sorry about the spelling)

Do you honestly think this post makes you look aything less than a complete twat.

This idea was so far beyond anything you've come up with, and let me remind you, he built it and it worked! Problem was it wasn't as good as current. OK, move on. Which he did.

This guy gets out there and does it. Now fuck off from this thread, nobody wants you here.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
The Diamond project is something I am very proud off. I has not sailed my Moth for 10 years. I built a legal surface-peirceing set of foils in my bedroom 100km away from my boat. Fitted them at Lake Garda and tested it. Broke it. Fixed it and flew again. I did the event in lowrider mode so I could race properly and came 2nd low rider.

This is my thread do not ruin it so:

Fuck off Doug.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
Back on topic.

I do not thinkg the Diamond configuration is goining to lead anywhere, having tested it and the state of the art I thnk the Diamond would not overtake the systems as they now are.

Are there any other foil configuration ideas out there?

 

Ross

Super Anarchist
3,574
14
Ok there are to many people with the name Doug here. :blink: There can only be one! :ph34r:

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
19
SLC, UT
Has anyone tried something shaped more like a tuna or swordfish fin? It seems that there might be some reason to follow the natural world where some fish can swim close to 30kts for short bursts. They all seem to have a similar configuration and shape to their tail fins. Where I have a problem with this is an effective way to adjust the AOA without requiring to strong of a force from the wand. I've always wondered if we could learn from the natural world and emulate some of their control systems and shapes.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
Has anyone tried something shaped more like a tuna or swordfish fin? It seems that there might be some reason to follow the natural world where some fish can swim close to 30kts for short bursts. They all seem to have a similar configuration and shape to their tail fins. Where I have a problem with this is an effective way to adjust the AOA without requiring to strong of a force from the wand. I've always wondered if we could learn from the natural world and emulate some of their control systems and shapes.
We started with square foils for ease of build and then went to eclipse shaped foils. The hindge stops the sweep back but now that there is no hinge on the rudder I think is would be good to do this on the rudder horizontal.

 

teknologika

Anarchist
748
1
Reduction in weight and windage of the hull will only go so far, as the size and weight of the skipper is probably the biggest factor here. Phil's unstayed masts seem to work fairly well, but after recient actual on the water foiling experience (as opposed to a theroetical wet dream that some others have), I am now very much aware that leach tension plays a HUGE role in upwind VMG, and I think that an unstayed mast would compromise this too much compared to the current rigs. To keep leach tension you would need to stiffen the mast considerably and then you would narrow the effective wind range back to what the sails used to be 7-10 years ago.

That said, knowing Phil he will probably prove my "unstayed mast won't work upwind" theory is completely wrong with chainsaw III.

Foils have a significant role to play, and I think that we are heading in the direction of multiple foil sets that are optimised for various conditions, e.g. an early liftoff set for marginal conditions, and a low drag set for high winds. Look for new designs here.

I also think that we are heading down the road of multiple rigs, especially for the lighter guys.

Continued developement and optomisaiton of the flap controls will occur, much like shock absorber settings in a racing car, with different setups for different conditions ... flat water, big waves etc. There won't be a mid ship wand, because it will not be proven to be faster than a bow wand.

We might see a move away from pocket luff sails back to tracked masts.

Red Herrings:

Flapped vs raking rudder - both work fine with no noticable performance difference either way.

The F Box - unless you can adjust the angle whilst sailing.

Bladerider is faster than everything else - they are damb sexy boats, but they are no giant leap forwards now that the top guys have caught up again.

Rudder fences - A stopgap solution to a problem that needs to be solved with a different rudder section raked forwards.

Learning to sail the things:

This is where the big gains are for a lot of people at the moment. If you can't keep it in the air the whole way around the course and nail every gybe and tack you won't be up there at championship level.

 

dougculnane

Member
348
0
OK so we have 3 worth while things to try already.

Mast without spreaders and a DN style mast bend.

Tuna / Dolfin sweept eclipse rudder horizontal.

Learning to sail.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
19
SLC, UT
I think the most effective process would be to reverse the order.

Learn to sail. Software seems to be the biggest single factor in winning. After all, the top guys are top in almost any boat the step foot in.

Tuna shaped rudder foil.

DN style rig.

 

FIGJAM

Member
342
0
small penny worth from the Gulf. Now it is getting too hot to sail in any kind of neoprene ( i was out this morning at 7 30 am in boardies) can we put an AC on board???

Seriously my spelling is shit but i am not too bothered about that.

I would like to try Duel wands and duel flap movements. This needs to be coupled with longer wands to get higher out the water to achieve more moment for upwind sailing.

The Duel wand idea being... here we go........ when healed to windward, the windward wand would do less work than the leeward wand, giving even more moment for you, and even LESS hiking than i do now. i know what i mean but describing is crap.

Also, i would like to put different trampolines on my boat, i would prefer netting, but small netting to let the breeze go through it. Would also like a much lighter sail to stop weight on the top of the rig, hence making it much more responsive.

There is a lot more shit i would like to do but i cannot remember what it is right now, very much concentrating on sailing as much as possible with lead up to Weymouth.

In terms of technique, i have changed the way i tack today, instead of trying to bring the boat flat with my bodyweight before trying to foil tack i instead now sheet the living daylights of of the main and the millisecond it come flat (also by this point i am 100% at the back of my wing) i chuck it over as fast as possible. This works way better as you have way more power to keep on the foils all the way through the tack instead of stalling and dropping off! You do however, when you get it a little bit wrong wind up on a broad reach on the new tack.... i am still working on that though!

made a small adjustment to foiling gybes as well, helps tons,cannot be bothered to write it down though! Am also now sitting much further back downwind and instead of bearing away immediately when a gust hits, start to hike it out like a laser a tiny little bit to accelerate before taking my apparent! Not sure if this is faster yet, Glenn keeps breaking shit so cannot test it. And my velocitek died in the round the world attempt.

Anyways, some food for thought!

Give it a rest doug Lord, your an idiot!

 

Doug Lord

Super Anarchist
11,483
21
Cocoa Beach, FL
The Diamond project is something I am very proud off. I has not sailed my Moth for 10 years. I built a legal surface-peirceing set of foils in my bedroom 100km away from my boat. Fitted them at Lake Garda and tested it. Broke it. Fixed it and flew again. I did the event in lowrider mode so I could race properly and came 2nd low rider.
This is my thread do not ruin it so
=====================

Gee ,Diamond Doug, I hate you see you give up so easily-even though if you studied a little more like about surface proximity drag and how foils actually work you would know how very ridiculous the original concept was. It never worked the way you thought it would-do you want to know why?? You don't want somebody coming into this thread telling you what an absurd ass you really are ,huh?

"No one cares about 2.5 chords below the surface. I do not care about theoretical wave on the surface drag shit.

 

Doug get a Moth and go sailing. Untill then stop talking with athority about about stuff you do not understand fully....."--from the C Class thread by Diamond Doug Culnane(spelling included at no extra charge)

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You're an ass: you personally attacked me w/o knowing a thing about me; you dissed my work w/o being able to say what was wrong with it. You discuss foiling only in terms of your limited Moth experience and your even more limited design experience. You act like Gods Gift to the Moth Class when in fact you are the notorius Diamond "Doug" Culnane" whose ability to discuss anything is limited by an inability to write, spell and discuss details like a normal person. You could have approached me in such a way that we could have discussed ideas and perhaps even learned from each other. Instead you approached me with your punk ignoramus hat on full of horseshit. So be it, Diamond Doug,Moth boy.

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You really should try to understand manual control and a midship wand.

Done.JPG

 
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