No skiff at 2016 Olympics

[Fireball]

I think that most moth sailors would vote against olympic selection.

If selected ISAF would have two options, both of which would destroy the class for all except the elete few:

Option 1. Choose the best design at the time of class selection which would freeze the design for something like 5 years before the subject olympics. If that had happenned for the next olymics it would have meant for 2012 we would have had Prowlers because the early bladriders were diabolical for reliability. The class would have suffered from all the aspirational sailors sailing obsolete boats for 5 years. There would have been effectively two moth classes, the 2006 one design for the professionals and the development boats for the amateurs. It would have been unlikely that the Mach2 would have been developed at all for the lesser sailors and even the development section of the class would have stagnated in design terms. If ISAF were to have selected the Mach2 in 2011 then we would have a similar stagnation for the next 5 years.

Design stagnation is not what made the moths such incredible boats this century. The last one design moth design cherry picked by ISAF was the Europe. Case proven.

Option 2. Leave the class as it is and let development continue. This would result in the rich countries spending huge sums of money in researching, designing and developing better moths at costs not affordable by poorer countries and certainly not affordable by most moth sailors. It would be good for development but the costs would soon mean that very few amateurs could compete at significant regattas. The class would become only for the elete from rich countries only.

Either way the moth class as we know it, its steady growth when most classes are at best stable, and the loyal following of sailors who just like competing even with outdated equipment, would all change. It would soon disenfranchise the vast majority of the class membership, the very membership who are the moth class, all to satisfy the IOC's TV customers and the vocal Internet couch sailors. I do not think it would be worth sacrificing the class we all love to actually sail.

Pity!!!

What would be more entertaining: watching a bunch of Lasers or Finns doing 5 knots upwind and pumping to surf waves downwind. Or watching a bunch of Moths doing three or four times their speed. It would be a great boost for sailing. What we have in the Olympics now is a very poor advertisement for the sport.

 

[EthanB]

First off, I should say that I know this is politically impossible. But..

If we really wanted to represent the full breadth of sailing, and at the same time encourage female participation, the five slots would be filled as follows --

2 each, male & female:

dinghy (singlehanded? double? gotta pick)

foiler (Not Moth, developed specifically for Olympics like Tornado; could be double-handed?)

multihull

board (kite or windsurf)

keelboat

I realize there's no skiff -- but it seems to me that a foiler is the ultimate expression of that form of sailing. Sailing a Moth is a lot more like sailing a skiff than anything else. Each one of these types is distinctly different from the others, and each one is a significant discipline within the sport.

Of course, as a realist, I also realize that there's a snowball's chance in hell that anything approximating this would ever come to pass.

 

[FishAintBiting]

I think that most moth sailors would vote against olympic selection.

If selected ISAF would have two options, both of which would destroy the class for all except the elete few:

Option 1. Choose the best design at the time of class selection which would freeze the design for something like 5 years before the subject olympics. If that had happenned for the next olymics it would have meant for 2012 we would have had Prowlers because the early bladriders were diabolical for reliability. The class would have suffered from all the aspirational sailors sailing obsolete boats for 5 years. There would have been effectively two moth classes, the 2006 one design for the professionals and the development boats for the amateurs. It would have been unlikely that the Mach2 would have been developed at all for the lesser sailors and even the development section of the class would have stagnated in design terms. If ISAF were to have selected the Mach2 in 2011 then we would have a similar stagnation for the next 5 years.

Design stagnation is not what made the moths such incredible boats this century. The last one design moth design cherry picked by ISAF was the Europe. Case proven.

Option 2. Leave the class as it is and let development continue. This would result in the rich countries spending huge sums of money in researching, designing and developing better moths at costs not affordable by poorer countries and certainly not affordable by most moth sailors. It would be good for development but the costs would soon mean that very few amateurs could compete at significant regattas. The class would become only for the elete from rich countries only.

Either way the moth class as we know it, its steady growth when most classes are at best stable, and the loyal following of sailors who just like competing even with outdated equipment, would all change. It would soon disenfranchise the vast majority of the class membership, the very membership who are the moth class, all to satisfy the IOC's TV customers and the vocal Internet couch sailors. I do not think it would be worth sacrificing the class we all love to actually sail.

Phil,

There might be a third option.

This may look like:

- 2 years before each olympics a One Design Moth is chosen, based on performance of the boat to the Moth class rules, for that olympics. This will need a caveat in there that the supplier can produce the boats in sufficient quantity, in a set time period, and for a set price.

This would enable the class to continue developing the boats and give some more incentive to the manufacturers to refine their offerings too.

Whilst at the olympics the boats may not be at the very forefront of Moths the sailors certainly would be.

Happy sailing,

Fish

 

[skiffboy]

This blatantly stolen from Andy Rice:

From Jim Champ: Seeing all the vitriol and, frankly, very inaccurate statements that are being made about the ISAF Olympic selections I did a little research and discovered that the choices made were entirely predictable if you had done a little research beforehand.
ISAF has something like 120 member nations, and If I read all the docs correctly 39 of them made submissions to the mid year meeting on the subject of Olympic classes. 9 from Asia, 22 from Europe, 5 from North America, and 2 from South America.

Of those countries

37 suggested some sort of board, both exceptions being in the NA region

39 suggested M & F Lasers

32 suggested M & F 470s, and just 4 mixed 470s

34 suggested the Finn

35 suggested a mixed multihull

37 suggested the 49er

32 suggested the women's skiff

The next biggest categories were 10 each for a male keelboat and a female keelboat.

Countries that didn't suggest M & F 470s were 4 in Europe, all large, and 2 in North America, 1 in South America. Other than in the Caribbean, the smaller countries all supported two 470s.

Whatever else may be said there seems little doubt that Council came up with a decision that reflected what its members were telling it. Sounds like democracy to me…

Personally I'd have dropped the womens skiff in favour of a match racing with mixed crews in the Elliots, but that was an option not one country suggested.

Very interesting to see more information on the different proposals. I am very curious about the reason the Exec made the recommendation they did - does anybody know what their mandate is? I mean, if the purpose of that committe is perhaps to represent the interests of encumbent parties, or the interests of the next hosts for example: then I'd say they did a good job.

 

[JimC]

- does anybody know what their mandate is?

I imagine it says what it is on the ISAF website. Could be an opportunity to do some research... Other people are allowed to read their website too, its not restricted to just me...

 

[skiffboy]

OK, I'll take that. Though when I did look, they were the only committe without terms of reference listed. Just this:

Executive Committee members will act as a mentor to the allocated committees and departments and will be responsible for the representation to the Executive and Council.

So I was wondering if someone smarter than me could explain what it is they do?

 

[johnnysaint]

OK, I'll take that. Though when I did look, they were the only committe without terms of reference listed. Just this:

Executive Committee members will act as a mentor to the allocated committees and departments and will be responsible for the representation to the Executive and Council.

So I was wondering if someone smarter than me could explain what it is they do?

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

 

[Tcatman]

OK, I'll take that. Though when I did look, they were the only committe without terms of reference listed. Just this:

Executive Committee members will act as a mentor to the allocated committees and departments and will be responsible for the representation to the Executive and Council.

So I was wondering if someone smarter than me could explain what it is they do?

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

I too have been looking for something in print on the guidelines for the mixed multihull class and how it balances with the woman's skiffs.

Given the Exec council voted for continuity (two keel boats) it would seem that they did not take the IOC request to ditch keel boats all that seriously. It would seem that they viewed the known participation of woman in keel boat racing as more of a sure thing then the unknown number of female high performance sailors across the ISAF countries.

So... what factors will the exec council favor? What factors would the selection committee favor? I have a pretty good idea what the athletes will want.

 

[johnnysaint]

OK, I'll take that. Though when I did look, they were the only committe without terms of reference listed. Just this:

Executive Committee members will act as a mentor to the allocated committees and departments and will be responsible for the representation to the Executive and Council.

So I was wondering if someone smarter than me could explain what it is they do?

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

I too have been looking for something in print on the guidelines for the mixed multihull class and how it balances with the woman's skiffs.

Given the Exec council voted for continuity (two keel boats) it would seem that they did not take the IOC request to ditch keel boats all that seriously. It would seem that they viewed the known participation of woman in keel boat racing as more of a sure thing then the unknown number of female high performance sailors across the ISAF countries. So... what factors will the exec council favor? What factors would the selection committee favor? I have a pretty good idea what the athletes will want.

the unknown number of female high performance sailors across the ISAF countries.

that certainly is the issue. Look at non Olympic high performance skiffs around the world and work out the ratio of women to men compared to the people (men and/or women) who sail keelboats.

Is the inclusion of a (token) womens skiff just being politically correct.

 

[Tcatman]

OK, I'll take that. Though when I did look, they were the only committe without terms of reference listed. Just this:

Executive Committee members will act as a mentor to the allocated committees and departments and will be responsible for the representation to the Executive and Council.

So I was wondering if someone smarter than me could explain what it is they do?

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

I too have been looking for something in print on the guidelines for the mixed multihull class and how it balances with the woman's skiffs.

Given the Exec council voted for continuity (two keel boats) it would seem that they did not take the IOC request to ditch keel boats all that seriously. It would seem that they viewed the known participation of woman in keel boat racing as more of a sure thing then the unknown number of female high performance sailors across the ISAF countries. So... what factors will the exec council favor? What factors would the selection committee favor? I have a pretty good idea what the athletes will want.

the unknown number of female high performance sailors across the ISAF countries.

that certainly is the issue. Look at non Olympic high performance skiffs around the world and work out the ratio of women to men compared to the people (men and/or women) who sail keelboats.

Is the inclusion of a (token) womens skiff just being politically correct.

Aww,,,, now you said it...

One... it's all relative... pretty much everyone starts from a standing start... There is no absolute scale or benchmark to compare performance to.

Two, the little ISAF countries have to feel that they have a shot at these medals... More so then in keel boats and Tornado.

Three, the ISAF can control the slots for each discipline... reward depth with more slots in the other disciplines.

 

[skiffboy]

-

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

Wouldn't be too difficult, thats for sure. Appreciate the comments and a good point of the 'token womens skiff' too.

I guess I approach this issue not from the 'sailing at the olympics should represent the pinnacle of sailboat racing around the world': but from the view 'the olympics are a place where athletes at the peak of their physical skills compete for personal glory'.

Or something equally prosaic...

 

[Tcatman]

-

I would read that as they being advisors - not decision makers. (Such as all Presidents & Prime Ministers have)

(and that doesn't mean I'm smarter than you)

Wouldn't be too difficult, thats for sure. Appreciate the comments and a good point of the 'token womens skiff' too.

I guess I approach this issue not from the 'sailing at the olympics should represent the pinnacle of sailboat racing around the world': but from the view 'the olympics are a place where athletes at the peak of their physical skills compete for personal glory'.

Or something equally prosaic...

I reject the personal glory bit.

I also reject the peak of their physical skill bit.

The olympics were huge before TV.... The idea is one representative of your country competed against the best of the world in sport. You tally medals by country... personal fame and glory are a by product.

The athlete thing is usually reserved for the decathlon...the so called competition for the worlds greatest athlete... Everyone else is playing a game of sport with more or less athletic prowess needed.

Is curling Olympic by your standard... Is air rowing (Henderson term) Olympic?

The 5 disciplines approach reflected the diversity of our sport... The rank and file could focus on their niche and support their countries rep to the Olympics. Tossing the Tornado fired up the multihull branch by separating the rank and file from the Olympic mission... Tossing the keel boats will probably separate the rank and file from the Olympics even further.

Sailing could have handled the athlete factor by choosing the proper equipment in each discipline.

So, how closely will the selection committee try to reflect what the rank and file actually compete in.... Do they choose popular (laser) or something exotic. We know the athletes will want the exotic highest performance boat. What is the mandate or charge to the selection committee and the exec committee for boards, skiffs and cats?

 

[will.summers]

If you want sailing to be interesting to watch on TV in the olympics you have to consider team racing. It more of a country vs country element, lots of lead changes, interesting tactics and situations for good commentary.