North Sails Nordac Radian

[RosieII]

We've got a 28 foot cruiser racer masthead rig where the class only allows dacron mains. Our current main is 10 years old and is ok >15kts but draft aft in light hurts. Sailmaker suggested radial instead of cross cut but I'm a bit sceptical as all one designs ie J24, Etchell etc still cross cut. Would it be that one designs change mains every couple of seasons and don't worry about longevity as they replace them anyway? Otherwise why wouldn't everyone use it?

 

[Crash]

My understanding is that Radian is newly developed (or marketed anyway) for just a boat/class as yours. Most OD classes still use cross cut in part (if you believe the marketing) because up till now, dacron allows little stretch in one direction and lots of stretch in the other direction. Radian theoritically solves that issue. If the stretch is the same across warp and weave, then tri-radial construction is possible and advantageous from a shape control standpoint. After all you don't see too many cross cut panelled kevlar mainsails out there to you, they are all tri-radial to control shape better.

Radian is on my list to look at very carefully when I go to replace the main on my 30 foot racer-cruiser...

 

[notallthere]

My understanding is that Radian is newly developed (or marketed anyway) for just a boat/class as yours. Most OD classes still use cross cut in part (if you believe the marketing) because up till now, dacron allows little stretch in one direction and lots of stretch in the other direction. Radian theoritically solves that issue. If the stretch is the same across warp and weave, then tri-radial construction is possible and advantageous from a shape control standpoint. After all you don't see too many cross cut panelled kevlar mainsails out there to you, they are all tri-radial to control shape better.
Radian is on my list to look at very carefully when I go to replace the main on my 30 foot racer-cruiser...

actually, there are lots of crosscut kevlar cloths available, and they are great for your size application.

i bet moose will chime in about D/P Flex shortly...

imo, radial dacron sucks unless heavily resinated, and then does not hold its shape that long

 

[owlslick]

radial cut dacron sails have been around for a long time, it's old news making a marketing revival at North

radial cut dacron sails are slightly more expensive to make than a cross cut sail since more cloth is used ( more goes to waste ) to get the orientation of weave in the best orientation for the load in a panel and more labor is required in assembly of the sail. As the size of the sail gets smaller, the panels get smaller decreasing the benefits of having a radial cut sail in dacron. Radial cut dacron sails can offer better performance and shape.

 

[A3A]

Radial construction offers the ability to better align the load bearing yarns in the weave in different parts of the sail and crosscut construction is much more limited in it's ability to do this. How important this is depends on lots of factors. Dinghys and small OD classes generate relatively small loads and use heavily resinated fabric to address off axis load. As boats get larger and heavier the loads increase and very stiff fabrics become increasingly hard to handle from a practical standpoint.

North Radian fabric differs from other "warp Dacron" by having been developed from scratch using a new and patented cloth construction technique. Plenty of folks will ignore the facts and dump on it as marketing hype because it's a North product. If your rules limit the use of laminates or ultimate performance has to yield to long term performance, it's worth looking into. If you only sail local events against boats similar to yours, it makes a lot more sense to have a good Dacron main and put the money saved into fresh headsails on a more regular basis.

 

[owlslick]

Dacron fibers have not been available for a couple of years or so. Dupont stopped manufacturing the polyester fibers (Dacron ) that went into making sailcloth. Current "dacron" fibers that are available from other manufacturers are equal to the polyester fibers ( Dacron ) as previously supplied by Dupont.

 

[A3A]

Dacron ™ fibers have not been available for a couple of years or so. Dupont stopped manufacturing the polyester fibers (Dacron ) that went into making sailcloth. Current "dacron" fibers that are available from other manufacturers are equal to the polyester fibers ( Dacron ) as previously supplied by Dupont.

Dacron is a bit like Kleenex, Xerox and Ketchup. The brand has come to define the entire genre. If sailcloth should not be called Dacron since it's not using DuPont fiber, then we shouldn't say Kevlar either since most aramid sails are not DuPont Kevlar.

 

Premium quality polyester sailcloth is made from a relatively unusual fiber type – filament yarn that is both "high tenacity" (strong), and "high shrink" (the shrinkage producing a very tight woven fabric during heat setting). The list of manufacturers producing this yarn type has changed quite regularly over the years. I think what you are referring to is that DuPont stopped making "Type 52" Dacron fiber. In fact, DuPont Type 52 has not been available for about 8 years. Oddly, reference to Type 52 yarn continues to appear in some cloth catalogs and sailmaker's pitches many years after this specific yarn brand disappeared.

 

Despite the multiple spin-offs, closures and consolidations of the plants and companies producing sailcloth-grade polyester yarn, the leading sailcloth companies have all ensured reliable supply of the exact yarns needed to produce premium polyester (aka "Dacron") sailcloth.

 

North produces it's NorDac using only the high tenacity / shrink yarns, but there are a lot of fabrics used for sails which do not utilize them. Just another thing that makes sail shopping more complicated then lowest price / best service.

 

 

[TheTwister]

North Radian fabric differs from other "warp Dacron" by having been developed from scratch using a new and patented cloth construction technique.

"new and patented"? I thought challenge had come up with the same thing

 

[owlslick]

the average sail consumer only sees price, and is ignorant of any technical information about the fibers, how they are woven or how they are finished. There are sail suppliers that are less than ethical in which cloth they use. First quality goods are available from all the major suppliers who have access to all the same yarns. The consumer can become better informed, but still relys on the "label" of his choice. North does not have a lock on first quality goods or the way they are engineered. It's nice that radial construction using woven goods is being featured in current marketing efforts, but that still is old news warmed up.

 

[Vincent DePillis]

the average sail consumer only sees price, and is ignorant of any technical information about the fibers, how they are woven or how they are finished. There are sail suppliers that are less than ethical in which cloth they use. First quality goods are available from all the major suppliers who have access to all the same yarns. The consumer can become better informed, but still relys on the "label" of his choice. North does not have a lock on first quality goods or the way they are engineered. It's nice that radial construction using woven goods is being featured in current marketing efforts, but that still is old news warmed up.

 

[Vincent DePillis]

. Hi owl. If you Are gonna dismiss north's claims, it would be nice if you could adduce specifics-- ie performance measures relative to existing warp oriented wovens an/or sppecifics about the patent. I have a ton of respect for north, so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, If the product is so great I don't know why they don't make comparative specs widely available. Their addiction to secrecy only diminishes their credibility.

the average sail consumer only sees price, and is ignorant of any technical information about the fibers, how they are woven or how they are finished. There are sail suppliers that are less than ethical in which cloth they use. First quality goods are available from all the major suppliers who have access to all the same yarns. The consumer can become better informed, but still relys on the "label" of his choice. North does not have a lock on first quality goods or the way they are engineered. It's nice that radial construction using woven goods is being featured in current marketing efforts, but that still is old news warmed up.

 

[Kestrahl]

Radial construction offers the ability to better align the load bearing yarns in the weave in different parts of the sail and crosscut construction is much more limited in it's ability to do this. How important this is depends on lots of factors. Dinghys and small OD classes generate relatively small loads and use heavily resinated fabric to address off axis load. As boats get larger and heavier the loads increase and very stiff fabrics become increasingly hard to handle from a practical standpoint.
North Radian fabric differs from other "warp Dacron" by having been developed from scratch using a new and patented cloth construction technique. Plenty of folks will ignore the facts and dump on it as marketing hype because it's a North product. If your rules limit the use of laminates or ultimate performance has to yield to long term performance, it's worth looking into. If you only sail local events against boats similar to yours, it makes a lot more sense to have a good Dacron main and put the money saved into fresh headsails on a more regular basis.

What is the new patented cloth construction technique? They put more fibres in the fill than the warp? so the sail will become like a scallop shell. It can't be balanced because thats been around for years and hardly anyone makes radial cut dacron sails out of it.

Cloth with Nor in the name is normally crap, like NorLam

 

[stinky]

Challenge just came out with a warp oriented Dacron where the warp yarns aren't crimped. That's something that's definitely new and definitely good. They also publish their numbers.

 

[Crash]

Bump...anyone out there actually sail with one (North Radian Main) yet?

 

[DPope]

Challenge just came out with a warp oriented Dacron where the warp yarns aren't crimped. That's something that's definitely new and definitely good. They also publish their numbers.

I have to "challenge" the no crimp warp in their product. Get a piece and tease out the warp fibers and have a look with a magnifying glass. Less crimp? Maybe. No crimp? Sorry, no.

I do have a real problem with North making unvarifiable claims. Graphs are not available to compare to other cloth makers products. If the warp dacrons are a marketing success someone will get a hold of a North sample and do an independent test. If it's good we may never hear about it. If not I hope the guy that does the testing has the courage to share the results.

Just remember North gave us the "Cross Bow" genoa, Nor Lame, and AeroLuff, among many other fine products. May the buyer beware.

I've been involved in cloth testing in my past and always found a good quality fill woven dacron held up better than any warp product in a given weight.

 

[A3A]

Challenge just came out with a warp oriented Dacron where the warp yarns aren't crimped. That's something that's definitely new and definitely good. They also publish their numbers.

I have to "challenge" the no crimp warp in their product. Get a piece and tease out the warp fibers and have a look with a magnifying glass. Less crimp? Maybe. No crimp? Sorry, no.

I do have a real problem with North making unvarifiable claims. Graphs are not available to compare to other cloth makers products. If the warp dacrons are a marketing success someone will get a hold of a North sample and do an independent test. If it's good we may never hear about it. If not I hope the guy that does the testing has the courage to share the results.

Just remember North gave us the "Cross Bow" genoa, Nor Lame, and AeroLuff, among many other fine products. May the buyer beware.

I've been involved in cloth testing in my past and always found a good quality fill woven dacron held up better than any warp product in a given weight.

It seems pretty short sighted to make a bad product just to have something new to market.

I'd bet if you contact North with a specific application for which you'd like to compare fabrics, you can get test data. Cloth manufacturer's have to publish their tests for their customers (sailmakers). But graphs are no proof a cloth is right for all applications. It's pretty easy to get confused by trying to compare tests from different sources done on different machines with different procedures and I am pretty sure anything published represents the pick of the lot.

J_105_Radian.pdf

As for your digs at other North products, Crossbow and AeroLuff were actually sold to North by Bill Stevenson who also sold them to other sailmakers. And they both actually do work although the Crossbow is a royal pain in the ass to get set up. Whether they are the right product for every sailor is a different story.

 

[notallthere]

Challenge just came out with a warp oriented Dacron where the warp yarns aren't crimped. That's something that's definitely new and definitely good. They also publish their numbers.

I have to "challenge" the no crimp warp in their product. Get a piece and tease out the warp fibers and have a look with a magnifying glass. Less crimp? Maybe. No crimp? Sorry, no.

I do have a real problem with North making unvarifiable claims. Graphs are not available to compare to other cloth makers products. If the warp dacrons are a marketing success someone will get a hold of a North sample and do an independent test. If it's good we may never hear about it. If not I hope the guy that does the testing has the courage to share the results.

Just remember North gave us the "Cross Bow" genoa, Nor Lame, and AeroLuff, among many other fine products. May the buyer beware.

I've been involved in cloth testing in my past and always found a good quality fill woven dacron held up better than any warp product in a given weight.

It seems pretty short sighted to make a bad product just to have something new to market.

I'd bet if you contact North with a specific application for which you'd like to compare fabrics, you can get test data. Cloth manufacturer's have to publish their tests for their customers (sailmakers). But graphs are no proof a cloth is right for all applications. It's pretty easy to get confused by trying to compare tests from different sources done on different machines with different procedures and I am pretty sure anything published represents the pick of the lot.

J_105_Radian.pdf

As for your digs at other North products, Crossbow and AeroLuff were actually sold to North by Bill Stevenson who also sold them to other sailmakers. And they both actually do work although the Crossbow is a royal pain in the ass to get set up. Whether they are the right product for every sailor is a different story.

those are either not the same design, or the process is not very repeatable...

 

[DPope]

Challenge just came out with a warp oriented Dacron where the warp yarns aren't crimped. That's something that's definitely new and definitely good. They also publish their numbers.

I have to "challenge" the no crimp warp in their product. Get a piece and tease out the warp fibers and have a look with a magnifying glass. Less crimp? Maybe. No crimp? Sorry, no.

I do have a real problem with North making unvarifiable claims. Graphs are not available to compare to other cloth makers products. If the warp dacrons are a marketing success someone will get a hold of a North sample and do an independent test. If it's good we may never hear about it. If not I hope the guy that does the testing has the courage to share the results.

Just remember North gave us the "Cross Bow" genoa, Nor Lame, and AeroLuff, among many other fine products. May the buyer beware.

I've been involved in cloth testing in my past and always found a good quality fill woven dacron held up better than any warp product in a given weight.

It seems pretty short sighted to make a bad product just to have something new to market.

I'd bet if you contact North with a specific application for which you'd like to compare fabrics, you can get test data. Cloth manufacturer's have to publish their tests for their customers (sailmakers). But graphs are no proof a cloth is right for all applications. It's pretty easy to get confused by trying to compare tests from different sources done on different machines with different procedures and I am pretty sure anything published represents the pick of the lot.

J_105_Radian.pdf

As for your digs at other North products, Crossbow and AeroLuff were actually sold to North by Bill Stevenson who also sold them to other sailmakers. And they both actually do work although the Crossbow is a royal pain in the ass to get set up. Whether they are the right product for every sailor is a different story.

All of the major cloth suppliers adhere to a common method of cloth testing and the data that results is available in graphs and the numbers are expressed in the same way by all. I don't want to take the time to explain it all but anyone that can read a Challenge graph can read a D/P graph and make educated comparisons. Furthermore when I ask for graphs I get tests of current, on the shelf, inventory. I will grant you that even on the same machine tests of a given lot done by two different people can vary, but not by meaningful amounts. Pounds are pounds, inches are inches, and 1% is 1%.

The notion that North would give up a graph to a competitor is laughable. In any case the real key to the success of a fabric though is not the initial tests on fresh samples. The real story is told when the material is fatigued, or fluttered. I have yet to see, in a lot of years looking, a warp dacron that held up as well as a cross-cut of similar weight and yarn quality.

As far as the North products I mentioned goes I did finish the paragraph by saying let the buyer beware. I shouldn't pick on North for stupid ideas that have come down over the years. Anyone remember the Zip Stop mainsail? How about Quicksilver? With all that said the big guys are always putting stuff out there that hasn't been thoroughly field tested, and when it doesn't work out the consumer is the loser.

Last thing before I go back to work. Those two sails are as different as can be. How many miles on the cross-cut? Looks like the radial is brand new. It would be great to see a photo of the radial sail when it has the same number of miles/races on it as the cross-cut.

 

[Pinner]

Bottom line- apples to apples--- which is faster out of the box?

who cares about longevity