NYYC Invitational Cup

[USA389]

All of the boats go the same speed.

Arguably the nicest US Swan 42 finished last in the IC while one that doesn't preform all that well, won it...

 

[RumLine]

All of the boats go the same speed.

Arguably the nicest US Swan 42 finished last in the IC while one that doesn't preform all that well, won it...

That's the point I was getting at, if you look at the results vs. other Swan 42 regattas you'll notice that the boats that performed the best at the IC were not always regulars on the podium. Additionally, the boat that finished 14th in the IC won more races than the top 3 boats in the regatta. This is the beauty of One Design, it showcases skill better than handicap racing ever could.

 

[rgeek]

Highly debatable. What skills are we talking about?

 

[us7070]

the complaining about this event is ridiculous

it may not be perfect, but it's as good as it gets.

it's almost certainly the most competitive and most level big boat (say, 40ft or bigger) racing event in the USA - the farr 40's maybe, but they don't have OD sails

and nothing anywhere in the USA under any rule/rating/handicap comes even close as far as determining who should get the trophy at the end of the regatta - the rules work so poorly for the typical assortment of boats that show up that it's usually not even worth calling it "racing"

if this is no good.., what's better?

 

[rgeek]

The people who don't win at events with provided equipment always complain about the equipment. It goes with the territory. The alternative is admitting they didn't sail well on the day!

And the more level it is the more they complain about smaller and smaller differences.

OD sailing in your own equipment is no different. The more locked down the class is the more people fret about smaller and smaller differences to get an boat speed edge and the less about understanding the conditions the racing becomes as people just mark the fleet etc..

Less skill required in preparing a fast boat (just sail to the numbers), less strategic skill to make the most of conditions.

So OD is a more testing examination of a narrow range of sailing skills. Does that make a more deserving winner compared to someone racing with more separation who has to wring out all the speed they can and make tactical decisions for them selves based on the conditions they experience becasue they can;t eb sure where they stand?

Dunno. But the time gaps in your average OD and handicap would indicate that the racing isn't much closer under OD, even if the boats are closer together on the water.

Whats better? Just different I think.

 

[dcbsheb]

The sails are brand new and identical. They are owned by the NYYC and only used for this event.

Except for the yellow kite.

So which boats, in your opinion, were slower? What team were you or your friends on? Did you feel that the sails were cut differently? If so, did you bring this to the attention of the OA? I have no doubt that the loft would happily fix the issues for the next iteration.

These are privately owned boats, maintained by different yards and used and raced with varying frequencies. They are One Design in build and configuration, but I would imagine that there are slight differences with each. Some teams were racing boats they owned, the rest were chartered. And there is the real problem with your boat rotation plan, it's very easy to rotate on club owned boats, but much harder when there is a charter agreement and insurance policies that create the relationship between the team and a specific boat.

Would love for you to share the specific feedback, rather than ranting on generalities.

Please don't misinterpret my questions as complaints. Somewhere early on in the thread someone mentioned that a crew was complaining about the equipment. I don't know much about this event at all outside of what I've read on here and listen to Gary Jobson painfully describe on TV, so i was curious as to how it's set up and run. Perhaps I worded my questions wrong, but in no way am I knocking NYYC for how they managed the event. It looks like a blast.

To take the approach that "This his how we do it, and we do it better than anyone else," or "We know what we're doing here, so don't even think about suggesting anything different," is just narrow-minded in my opinion. You tried to blast me when I suggested rotating, and then you quickly exclaimed that the sails are new when I suggested rotating sails. If the boats are chartered to the individual teams, then I completely understand the insurance side of things. We've hosted several events with chartered boats, but they were always chartered to the OA, and our insurance covered them. The competitors were sailing in supplied boats, not chartered. Not saying one way is better, but it makes rotations easier. We own two fleets of the most identically set up and matched boats you will ever see. We have 14 sets of sails for each of the 8-boat fleets. We still rotate through everything to ensure fairness and to take that type complaining out of the equation.

I agree that the people at the bottom will always look to reasons other than "we just aren't good enough" to justify why they lost. Well, maybe they should train harder, try harder, or look to recruiting better crew. At the end of the day, I agree with you that this appears to be a great regatta and a great test of sailing ability. I think the format of how it's set up to match yacht clubs against yacht clubs is great. I'd love to see it get more attention here in the Midwest outside of Chicago. Kudos to everyone who participated and had a part in organizing and running it.

Cheers.

David Bronson

 

[Texas Strong]

How about the Swan 42s that are taken out of OD trim to race handicap and are then put back into OD trim as best as possible for this regatta.

But you can't UN-FAIR a faired bottom.

 

[mad]

In the citizen match racing back in the day they rotated sails but not boats. There were a couple of cases of invited skippers purposely pranging their boats in order to get the spare boat that they thought was faster. Many horror stories like one team crossing the start on stb on a crazy port biased line and just running across the bow of every boat and protesting the lot.

Good times.

Don't you mean..... Like that time all those boats risked starting on port when there was a boat setting up on starboard and they all rightly got protested?

Better.

 

[Edith Bicknell]

How about the Swan 42s that are taken out of OD trim to race handicap and are then put back into OD trim as best as possible for this regatta.

But you can't UN-FAIR a faired bottom.

Has that happened?

 

[ease hike trim]

He has no idea. He's just spouting shit like the other keyboard jackals here who'd rather tear something down than aspire to it. I have been involved on the water in every IC race and every ICQS besides the first one and am confident that none of the comments in this thread regarding the fairness of the event or the equivalence of the boats was written by a competitor. Winning boat this year averaged over six points per race out of seventeen. Second place boat had a 17 and a 15. If you didn't do well it wasn't the boat. It was bad luck or the other 16 teams of excellent sailors you were racing against.

 

[Texas Strong]

So Better Than... was not modified for IRC racing?

 

[ease hike trim]

Go on...what mods did Better Than... have done that weren't reversible and made her so scary fast that she averaged finishing ahead of 2/3 of the fleet and behind the other 1/3?

 

[RumLine]

He has no idea. He's just spouting shit like the other keyboard jackals here who'd rather tear something down than aspire to it. I have been involved on the water in every IC race and every ICQS besides the first one and am confident that none of the comments in this thread regarding the fairness of the event or the equivalence of the boats was written by a competitor. Winning boat this year averaged over six points per race out of seventeen. Second place boat had a 17 and a 15. If you didn't do well it wasn't the boat. It was bad luck or the other 16 teams of excellent sailors you were racing against.

Exactly. This regatta provides level racing on an international level for amateurs and is unlike anything else. There's a certain prestige to this event, not because it's run by NYYC, but because of the talent that shows up to compete.

So Better Than... was not modified for IRC racing?

I've heard from many Swan 42 owners that tell me that any 42 racing in IRC did so more for the reliance on Pros than any potential modifications. And the only boat that I know of to have made any modifications was The Cat Came Back, who ensured that the boat could easily be converted back to One Design configuration at a moments notice.

The very reason the US Swan 42 class is dwindling is because the Europeans keep buying up the boats and sailing them in IRC under OD configuration because they do very well under the rule.

 

[dacapo]

let's get back to the shitty common tree by jobson

 

[rgeek]

Exactly. This regatta provides level racing on an international level for amateurs and is unlike anything else. There's a certain prestige to this event, not because it's run by NYYC, but because of the talent that shows up to compete.

Bit Commedy Cup Lite init? Same demographic just sans boat work up (which is a sailing skill), team work and pesudo-offshoreness.

 

[dcbsheb]

let's get back to the shitty common tree by jobson

What fun is it to discuss something that everyone on SA can agree with? Those threads die within a day.

 

[MarcusJtown]

Watched the ESPN show and can't imagine anyone doing a worse job. Who was this for? No technical details for active racers; no background or anything of interest for the non-sailors. I've no doubt non-racers tuned out at the first Rolex commercial. I only continued to watch to see how inane Jobson would get. I wasn't disappointed. Think he was on Ambient all week. One minute all the competitors are learning the boat for the first time. The next several team have practiced in the boats for year and are repeat competitors. Which is it?

But the key was Gary chuckling over how hard one team was working because all the crews were extending their arms outboard upwind. Now imagine you're a non-sailor and maybe an athlete from another sport. Gosh yes those guys are working hard, they're holding their arms up!

This show was the most ridiculous piece of sailing footage ever. No editing, no content, no drama. As the voice of sailing, Gary Jobson does a huge disservice to the sport.

The Show was terrible, and the commentary just as bad. I think the problem is the format. 17 teams sailing 12 races over 5 days, and they try and jam it into a 45 minute piece. Imagine a show that tries to show the entire F1 season in one piece. There is no way to show all of the tactics and stories when you can only devote about 3 minutes of air time to each race, and it makes it hard for the commentary to keep up. They've just proved that the live stuff on the internet is the way to watch this.

 

[jesposito]

Watched the ESPN show and can't imagine anyone doing a worse job. Who was this for? No technical details for active racers; no background or anything of interest for the non-sailors. I've no doubt non-racers tuned out at the first Rolex commercial. I only continued to watch to see how inane Jobson would get. I wasn't disappointed. Think he was on Ambient all week. One minute all the competitors are learning the boat for the first time. The next several team have practiced in the boats for year and are repeat competitors. Which is it?

But the key was Gary chuckling over how hard one team was working because all the crews were extending their arms outboard upwind. Now imagine you're a non-sailor and maybe an athlete from another sport. Gosh yes those guys are working hard, they're holding their arms up!

This show was the most ridiculous piece of sailing footage ever. No editing, no content, no drama. As the voice of sailing, Gary Jobson does a huge disservice to the sport.

The Show was terrible, and the commentary just as bad. I think the problem is the format. 17 teams sailing 12 races over 5 days, and they try and jam it into a 45 minute piece. Imagine a show that tries to show the entire F1 season in one piece. There is no way to show all of the tactics and stories when you can only devote about 3 minutes of air time to each race, and it makes it hard for the commentary to keep up. They've just proved that the live stuff on the internet is the way to watch this.

You have hit the nail on the head

 

[Former MDR Vandal 1]

Congratulations to Paul and his team. Paul has been a tireless supporter of One Design racing for over 25 years with a Frers 33, Mumm 36, Farr 40 and the NY 42. Paul was one of the early key players in developing this One Design Class so I am sure this result was particularly satisfying for him. I was lucky enough to race with Paul, Ivers, Zeller and a bunch of Paul’s Guys on the Mumm 36 and a few races on the Farr 40 so I have first hand experience that he is a cool Dude.

As for the event with reference to boat rotation … it isn’t out of the question even though it does create another logistical hurdle … look at what SDYC does with the Master’s and the Lipton Cup on J 105’s every year.

 

[Two Tone]

I can confirm that Better Than.. didn't have anything modified that would have taken us out of One-Design or made us any faster than any of the other 42's, as someone pointed out at times we were anything but rather than better than! Still hurts to hike that hard!

Congrats to the regatta team, one of the tightest regattas I have sailed in years - very scary when trying to defend a dwindling lead!