Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation

Pertinacious Tom

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Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.

But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader. ;)
Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?
I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.

Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?

 

Mark K

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Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.

But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader. ;)
Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?
I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.

Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?

Ollie North was not trying to bust OC in a wild-west failed state. Are you are of the opinion that the US government should never run covert ops of any type?

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
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Punta Gorda FL
I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.

Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?

Ollie North was not trying to bust OC in a wild-west failed state. Are you are of the opinion that the US government should never run covert ops of any type?
"Tracing" guns would involve keeping track of them, something that did not happen. Read Issa and Grassley's letter again.

At the same time of the release of the OIG report - and perhaps influenced by it - ATF formalized its policy of letting American guns reach the drug cartels. Field agents vociferously objected, aghast at the prospect of high-caliber weapons being allowed to enter Mexico. Senior Agent John Dodson was one of those agents who came forward to complain that the ATF had allowed guns to be "walked" into Mexico. ATF even videotaped suspected drug cartel suppliers as they loaded AK-47 type assault rifles into their cars and permitted them to transport those firearms across the border. ATF officials failed to report this to Mexican authorities and eventually lost track of hundreds of these guns. Unsurprisingly, these weapons began showing up at crime scenes both in Mexico and the U.S. Notably on December 14, 2010, two "walked" rifles turned up at Agent Terry's murder site.
Senator Grassley requested specific documents about this policy but, thus far, has received nothing from ATF or DOJ. In fact, Special Agent In Charge (SAC) William D. Newell has steadfastly denied that this policy even exists, as has DOJ. When confronted by documentary evidence from Senator Grassley's office, however, Attorney General Holder asked the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General to conduct a review.

He goes on to ask for a bunch of specific communications and documents, to be delivered by about an hour ago. I have not checked to see if they arrived yet, but am not holding my breath. I would not be surprised if the stonewalling continues and we move on to the subpoena phase.

Covert operations are not always wrong, nor is revealing them. Outta control stupid ones need revealing so they will be stopped before doing more harm. That was the case here.

 
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Mark K

Super Anarchist
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I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.

Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?

Ollie North was not trying to bust OC in a wild-west failed state. Are you are of the opinion that the US government should never run covert ops of any type?
"Tracing" guns would involve keeping track of them, something that did not happen. Read Issa and Grassley's letter again.

At the same time of the release of the OIG report - and perhaps influenced by it - ATF formalized its policy of letting American guns reach the drug cartels. Field agents vociferously objected, aghast at the prospect of high-caliber weapons being allowed to enter Mexico. Senior Agent John Dodson was one of those agents who came forward to complain that the ATF had allowed guns to be "walked" into Mexico. ATF even videotaped suspected drug cartel suppliers as they loaded AK-47 type assault rifles into their cars and permitted them to transport those firearms across the border. ATF officials failed to report this to Mexican authorities and eventually lost track of hundreds of these guns. Unsurprisingly, these weapons began showing up at crime scenes both in Mexico and the U.S. Notably on December 14, 2010, two "walked" rifles turned up at Agent Terry's murder site.
Senator Grassley requested specific documents about this policy but, thus far, has received nothing from ATF or DOJ. In fact, Special Agent In Charge (SAC) William D. Newell has steadfastly denied that this policy even exists, as has DOJ. When confronted by documentary evidence from Senator Grassley's office, however, Attorney General Holder asked the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General to conduct a review.

He goes on to ask for a bunch of specific communications and documents, to be delivered by about an hour ago. I have not checked to see if they arrived yet, but am not holding my breath. I would not be surprised if the stonewalling continues and we move on to the subpoena phase.

Covert operations are not always wrong, nor is revealing them. Outta control stupid ones need revealing so they will be stopped before doing more harm. That was the case here.
The effort to make it as public as possible, and the crafting of bullshit motives against the ATF indicates something. We will have to draw our own conclusions.

 

Pertinacious Tom

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Punta Gorda FL
The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
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JBSF said:
Nanny, thats a bit of a stretch even for you and the NRA to accuse the admin of deliberately allowing guns to cross the border for the purpose of them showing up back here to be used in crimes. Its a good conspiracy theory for political blogs, but its blatent supposition as to the intent.

However, allowing the guns to cross over knowing they were illegal with no way to keep an eye on them until they reached the bigger fish is just asininely stupid and someone needs to hang for that. And if it turns out to be Holder and/or Obama - I'll tie the knot myself.

Looks like Rep Issa and Sen Grassely are not happy and this letter explains the whole deal a lot better than the NRA gobbledy gook.
Contrast that letter with Melson's testimony last year. http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2010/03/030410-testimony-atf-dir-melson-fy11-appropriations.html
Well, according to this

Four hundred and ninty-seven cases have charged violations related to the trafficking of an estimated 14,923 firearms. One hundred and fifty-nine of these cases involved gang- related trafficking of over 3,665 firearms. In all investigations, over 6,688 firearms have been seized and are no longer available to violent criminals and gang members.
There are still 10,000 firearms still in circulation.

 
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Saorsa

Super Anarchist
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419
Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.

But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader. ;)
Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?
It doesn't take much for a 'sting' to turn into entrapment. As to padding statistics. I'm sure there are those at higher levels in ATF that only see operations through statistical glasses.

For an operation like this to be viable, there should be some way to retrieve the guns once the trap is sprung. It would be like putting up the money for a ransom and then not being able to retrieve it after the sting has gone down.

 

nannygovtsucks

Super Anarchist
15,365
4
Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.

But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader. ;)
Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?
It doesn't take much for a 'sting' to turn into entrapment. As to padding statistics. I'm sure there are those at higher levels in ATF that only see operations through statistical glasses.

For an operation like this to be viable, there should be some way to retrieve the guns once the trap is sprung. It would be like putting up the money for a ransom and then not being able to retrieve it after the sting has gone down.

Interesting explanation of the Gunwalker Scandal and ATF sting operations.

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/atf-creates-black-market-for-stolen-guns-and-then-arrests-a-bunch-of-thieves/

Also from Malkin, how Obama stimulus money funded the operation:

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/03/30/project-gunrunner-obamas-stimulus-funded-border-nightmare/

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
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The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."

Cui bono?

 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
36,772
419
The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."

Cui bono?
Cui Bono? All of us.

The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).

They had no brief to run around starting raids to search private property. We already had federal agencies with that responsibility who could very well do the Law Enforcement vs. monitoring and reporting function which is their real brief.)

You may google 'prohibition' and discover that the FBI actually prosecuted the illegal producers and smugglers of alcohol, not the BATF. Incidentally, this is how the DEA should work as well.

The BATF pretty much fucks up everything it undertakes on it's own. Waco is a good example.

Google 'BATF success', it's amusing.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,246
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Punta Gorda FL
The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."

Cui bono?
Cui Bono? All of us.

The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).
Also taxes, under the National Firearms Act, predecessor to the 1968 Gun Control Act.

I'm not sure how exposing ATF's stupid program will result in eliminating them or rendering them harmless. Seems an odd goal for the ATF agents who reported that this illegal operation was going on, doesn't it?

That might explain the quotation marks but no actual source in Mark's post. He made up another motive, which he seemed to think was bad a while ago. I guess it's only bad sometimes.

Were the ATF field agents who thought it stupid to send a bunch of straw purchase busts to annoyed prosecutors who just dropped the cases, all while watching thousands of guns moved to the Mexican cartels, really trying to destroy the ATF when they blew the whistle?

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,857
The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."

Cui bono?
Cui Bono? All of us.

The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).
Also taxes, under the National Firearms Act, predecessor to the 1968 Gun Control Act.

I'm not sure how exposing ATF's stupid program will result in eliminating them or rendering them harmless. Seems an odd goal for the ATF agents who reported that this illegal operation was going on, doesn't it?

That might explain the quotation marks but no actual source in Mark's post. He made up another motive, which he seemed to think was bad a while ago. I guess it's only bad sometimes.

Were the ATF field agents who thought it stupid to send a bunch of straw purchase busts to annoyed prosecutors who just dropped the cases, all while watching thousands of guns moved to the Mexican cartels, really trying to destroy the ATF when they blew the whistle?
I thought we agreed that the ones given for the ATF's decision to embark on a risky operation were bullshit.

What motivated them to craft that?

Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.

 
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Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
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Punta Gorda FL
Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.

Why do you suppose the agents who originally broke this story came forward? I think it's because they saw a pointless and risky operation, not to mention an illegal one, going on, and decided to protect the integrity of their agency by blowing the whistle. You like to guess motives. How about theirs?

Since then, all that has happened is that people have repeated what they said and asked questions about it. The story spread from gun blogs to more mainstream news sources, and eventually even to the NRA and Congress, finally making it to the Washington Post after a while.

Those guys did not tell their story hoping that no one would repeat it. They had to be hoping something like this would happen. Why would they do that? Were they trying to benefit the manufacturers or the cartels?

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
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Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.

Why do you suppose the agents who originally broke this story came forward? I think it's because they saw a pointless and risky operation, not to mention an illegal one, going on, and decided to protect the integrity of their agency by blowing the whistle. You like to guess motives. How about theirs?

Since then, all that has happened is that people have repeated what they said and asked questions about it. The story spread from gun blogs to more mainstream news sources, and eventually even to the NRA and Congress, finally making it to the Washington Post after a while.

Those guys did not tell their story hoping that no one would repeat it. They had to be hoping something like this would happen. Why would they do that? Were they trying to benefit the manufacturers or the cartels?
They saw it as stupid. I think it likely proves-out to the the verdict on it too.

There are always going to be ill-conceived attempts to take down criminals in terrible conditions to do so. Why do some people feel the need to attribute terrible goals and nefarious plots to the ATF? They want them to go away, and for them it is best this must not be handled through channels but as publicly as possible. Congressional investigations, no less, for a failed covert attempt at tracking down some bad guys in Mexico. Should have been handled on the QT. There may be informants in there who are put in danger. Happens all the time with responsible congressman.

They got approval from DOJ, so if it was illegal, then that is but your opinion. It get's pretty hard to sort out when we deal with crime in a foreign country, as they were tasked to do.

I think this will all succeed in producing the most risk-adverse culture in the ATF as can be made to exist. Who benefits from that?

 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
36,772
419
Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.

Why do you suppose the agents who originally broke this story came forward? I think it's because they saw a pointless and risky operation, not to mention an illegal one, going on, and decided to protect the integrity of their agency by blowing the whistle. You like to guess motives. How about theirs?

Since then, all that has happened is that people have repeated what they said and asked questions about it. The story spread from gun blogs to more mainstream news sources, and eventually even to the NRA and Congress, finally making it to the Washington Post after a while.

Those guys did not tell their story hoping that no one would repeat it. They had to be hoping something like this would happen. Why would they do that? Were they trying to benefit the manufacturers or the cartels?
They saw it as stupid. I think it likely proves-out to the the verdict on it too.

There are always going to be ill-conceived attempts to take down criminals in terrible conditions to do so. Why do some people feel the need to attribute terrible goals and nefarious plots to the ATF? They want them to go away, and for them it is best this must not be handled through channels but as publicly as possible. Congressional investigations, no less, for a failed covert attempt at tracking down some bad guys in Mexico. Should have been handled on the QT. There may be informants in there who are put in danger. Happens all the time with responsible congressman.

They got approval from DOJ, so if it was illegal, then that is but your opinion. It get's pretty hard to sort out when we deal with crime in a foreign country, as they were tasked to do.

I think this will all succeed in producing the most risk-adverse culture in the ATF as can be made to exist. Who benefits from that?
We do. The BATF should lose the power of arrest and go back to being bean counters and tax collectors. It is just one of the many overlapping LE bureacracies. I went to our local air show last week. There, zipping around on Segways with training wheels were

The Charlotte County Sheriffs Dept

The Florida State Police

USAF Air Police

Transportation Safety Agency

Homeland Security

Most of them rolling or walking around in their nifty SWAT tactical gear. All this for a little airshow that pulls about 65000 people on a really good day. They didn't even have one of the service jet precision flight teams. Just a private bunch with Czech L39 trainers.

The Army, Air National Guard and Civil Air Patrol were there as part of their recruiting and just manning booths.

Meanwhile, security at the entrance gate (in a concealed carry state) consisted of airshow volunteers who only looked in big bags. I lifted my camera out of an 8x12x4 inch gadget bag and got waved through.

dsc_5052ac107r107.jpg


 

nannygovtsucks

Super Anarchist
15,365
4
The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.

Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it. ;)

Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.

The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.

Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."

Cui bono?
Cui Bono? All of us.

The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).

They had no brief to run around starting raids to search private property. We already had federal agencies with that responsibility who could very well do the Law Enforcement vs. monitoring and reporting function which is their real brief.)

You may google 'prohibition' and discover that the FBI actually prosecuted the illegal producers and smugglers of alcohol, not the BATF. Incidentally, this is how the DEA should work as well.

The BATF pretty much fucks up everything it undertakes on it's own. Waco is a good example.

Google 'BATF success', it's amusing.
Kind of goes along with the cite I gave earlier. In part,

.......Unlike other law enforcement agencies who react to crime and investigate, the ATF goes out and creates crime and then arrests a bunch of people. No really. Since its elevation to federal agency status (a HUGE mistake), the ATF has had more stings than a naked apiculturist. ....

The nub of the matter is easy enough to grasp: the ATF will do anything to catch criminals. Including create them. It's a profoundly unconstitutional SOP by an Agency that's happy to ensnare otherwise legal American gun owners in a paperwork trap, BTW. But let's stick with today's nearasdammit perfect example of the ATF run amok.

 

Undercover storefront sting nets over 100 the Department of Justice's press releaseproclaims.

 



A multi-agency law enforcement task force led by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Phoenix Police Department, with assistance from the U.S. Marshall's Service, began arresting suspects in the case early last week. Over its duration, the Operation resulted in the seizure of 223 weapons – including handguns, assault rifles, rifles and sawed-off shotguns, many of them stolen.


 


Agents and officers also seized narcotics, including methamphetamine, "crack" and powder cocaine, prescription medications, marijuana and heroin. ATF agents and a detective from Phoenix PD culminated the nine-month investigation in January.


 


The agents operated a secondhand merchandise store dealing in military supplies and used electronics, where they purchased guns and narcotics from individuals who came into the store. As with previous successful ATF investigations in other states, the store was equipped with electronic surveillance equipment to capture all of the transactions.


 
Think about this. A store opens up in a bad part of Phoenix for the express purpose of purchasing stolen weapons (for the ATF) and drugs (for the other agencies). The store lets it be known that they're open for [criminal] business and spreads a ton of cash around. No one gets arrested. And so their "success" snowballs over nine months. The bad guys know there's a thriving market for stolen guns. So what do they do? Steal guns.

 

Now look at this from an Arizona gun owner's point of view. You're sitting in your house with a nice collection of guns. Suddenly, bad shit goes down. A group of very bad people (with a nice new income stream to keep them ungainfully employed) have decided that they want your guns. And by God they're going to take them. Why? So they can sell them to the federal government.

 

News flash: sting operations don't stop crime. The foster it. Although not enough judges are willing to lay down the law in cases where obvious bad guys appear before them thanks to "here run this down the street for me right quick" law enforcement, sting operations are illegal. They lure people into committing crimes.

 

 

http://thetruthabout...nch-of-thieves/

 
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Mark K

Super Anarchist
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1,857
There you go Tom, like Nanny proved, the Gun Lobby is out to smear the ATF. Not that they like the Cartels or the slaughter going on in Mexico, it's just that there are some things that are worse....

When some people break the law, it's the cops that go on trial.

 
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