Regatta Dog
Super Anarchist
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- Banned
- #41
Yes. And DOJ are just the folks to do it......wait....Talk about a loophole that needs to be closed....
Never mind.
Yes. And DOJ are just the folks to do it......wait....Talk about a loophole that needs to be closed....
I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.
But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader.![]()
Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.
But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader.![]()
Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
"Tracing" guns would involve keeping track of them, something that did not happen. Read Issa and Grassley's letter again.Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.
Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
Ollie North was not trying to bust OC in a wild-west failed state. Are you are of the opinion that the US government should never run covert ops of any type?
At the same time of the release of the OIG report - and perhaps influenced by it - ATF formalized its policy of letting American guns reach the drug cartels. Field agents vociferously objected, aghast at the prospect of high-caliber weapons being allowed to enter Mexico. Senior Agent John Dodson was one of those agents who came forward to complain that the ATF had allowed guns to be "walked" into Mexico. ATF even videotaped suspected drug cartel suppliers as they loaded AK-47 type assault rifles into their cars and permitted them to transport those firearms across the border. ATF officials failed to report this to Mexican authorities and eventually lost track of hundreds of these guns. Unsurprisingly, these weapons began showing up at crime scenes both in Mexico and the U.S. Notably on December 14, 2010, two "walked" rifles turned up at Agent Terry's murder site.
Senator Grassley requested specific documents about this policy but, thus far, has received nothing from ATF or DOJ. In fact, Special Agent In Charge (SAC) William D. Newell has steadfastly denied that this policy even exists, as has DOJ. When confronted by documentary evidence from Senator Grassley's office, however, Attorney General Holder asked the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General to conduct a review.
The effort to make it as public as possible, and the crafting of bullshit motives against the ATF indicates something. We will have to draw our own conclusions."Tracing" guns would involve keeping track of them, something that did not happen. Read Issa and Grassley's letter again.Where is the ATF denying that they were trying to do gun traces?I'm talking about the denials to Congress, after the covert part was over. No one was denying the operation took place, but they sure denied that the stupid parts happened, or were authorized, once they were exposed. Specifically, no one seems to want credit for the bright idea of letting the guns loose in Mexico in the hands of criminals without any way to track them, without informing the Mexican government, and without informing their ATF counterparts in Mexico.
Re covert ops, you never did answer my earlier question on that subject: was it wrong to expose Ollie North's covert operation?
Ollie North was not trying to bust OC in a wild-west failed state. Are you are of the opinion that the US government should never run covert ops of any type?
At the same time of the release of the OIG report - and perhaps influenced by it - ATF formalized its policy of letting American guns reach the drug cartels. Field agents vociferously objected, aghast at the prospect of high-caliber weapons being allowed to enter Mexico. Senior Agent John Dodson was one of those agents who came forward to complain that the ATF had allowed guns to be "walked" into Mexico. ATF even videotaped suspected drug cartel suppliers as they loaded AK-47 type assault rifles into their cars and permitted them to transport those firearms across the border. ATF officials failed to report this to Mexican authorities and eventually lost track of hundreds of these guns. Unsurprisingly, these weapons began showing up at crime scenes both in Mexico and the U.S. Notably on December 14, 2010, two "walked" rifles turned up at Agent Terry's murder site.
Senator Grassley requested specific documents about this policy but, thus far, has received nothing from ATF or DOJ. In fact, Special Agent In Charge (SAC) William D. Newell has steadfastly denied that this policy even exists, as has DOJ. When confronted by documentary evidence from Senator Grassley's office, however, Attorney General Holder asked the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General to conduct a review.
He goes on to ask for a bunch of specific communications and documents, to be delivered by about an hour ago. I have not checked to see if they arrived yet, but am not holding my breath. I would not be surprised if the stonewalling continues and we move on to the subpoena phase.
Covert operations are not always wrong, nor is revealing them. Outta control stupid ones need revealing so they will be stopped before doing more harm. That was the case here.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
Well, according to thisContrast that letter with Melson's testimony last year. http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2010/03/030410-testimony-atf-dir-melson-fy11-appropriations.htmlJBSF said:Nanny, thats a bit of a stretch even for you and the NRA to accuse the admin of deliberately allowing guns to cross the border for the purpose of them showing up back here to be used in crimes. Its a good conspiracy theory for political blogs, but its blatent supposition as to the intent.
However, allowing the guns to cross over knowing they were illegal with no way to keep an eye on them until they reached the bigger fish is just asininely stupid and someone needs to hang for that. And if it turns out to be Holder and/or Obama - I'll tie the knot myself.
Looks like Rep Issa and Sen Grassely are not happy and this letter explains the whole deal a lot better than the NRA gobbledy gook.
There are still 10,000 firearms still in circulation.Four hundred and ninty-seven cases have charged violations related to the trafficking of an estimated 14,923 firearms. One hundred and fifty-nine of these cases involved gang- related trafficking of over 3,665 firearms. In all investigations, over 6,688 firearms have been seized and are no longer available to violent criminals and gang members.
It doesn't take much for a 'sting' to turn into entrapment. As to padding statistics. I'm sure there are those at higher levels in ATF that only see operations through statistical glasses.Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.
But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader.![]()
It doesn't take much for a 'sting' to turn into entrapment. As to padding statistics. I'm sure there are those at higher levels in ATF that only see operations through statistical glasses.Covert operation, was it not? Or were they supposed to announce they were running stings on foreign drug cartels?Frankly, I'm more concerned with why ATF decided to damage their credibility by denying this operation was doing what we now know it was doing.
But then, I'm not a big Washington Post reader.![]()
For an operation like this to be viable, there should be some way to retrieve the guns once the trap is sprung. It would be like putting up the money for a ransom and then not being able to retrieve it after the sting has gone down.
"The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.
Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it.![]()
Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.
The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
They work on a commission?"We keep busting all these straw buyers who are sending guns to Mexican cartels and we want more money to keep it up!"
Cui bono?
Cui Bono? All of us."The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.
Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it.![]()
Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.
The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
Cui bono?
Also taxes, under the National Firearms Act, predecessor to the 1968 Gun Control Act.Cui Bono? All of us."The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.
Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it.![]()
Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.
The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
Cui bono?
The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).
I thought we agreed that the ones given for the ATF's decision to embark on a risky operation were bullshit.Also taxes, under the National Firearms Act, predecessor to the 1968 Gun Control Act.Cui Bono? All of us."The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.
Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it.![]()
Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.
The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
Cui bono?
The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).
I'm not sure how exposing ATF's stupid program will result in eliminating them or rendering them harmless. Seems an odd goal for the ATF agents who reported that this illegal operation was going on, doesn't it?
That might explain the quotation marks but no actual source in Mark's post. He made up another motive, which he seemed to think was bad a while ago. I guess it's only bad sometimes.
Were the ATF field agents who thought it stupid to send a bunch of straw purchase busts to annoyed prosecutors who just dropped the cases, all while watching thousands of guns moved to the Mexican cartels, really trying to destroy the ATF when they blew the whistle?
The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
They saw it as stupid. I think it likely proves-out to the the verdict on it too.The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
Why do you suppose the agents who originally broke this story came forward? I think it's because they saw a pointless and risky operation, not to mention an illegal one, going on, and decided to protect the integrity of their agency by blowing the whistle. You like to guess motives. How about theirs?
Since then, all that has happened is that people have repeated what they said and asked questions about it. The story spread from gun blogs to more mainstream news sources, and eventually even to the NRA and Congress, finally making it to the Washington Post after a while.
Those guys did not tell their story hoping that no one would repeat it. They had to be hoping something like this would happen. Why would they do that? Were they trying to benefit the manufacturers or the cartels?
We do. The BATF should lose the power of arrest and go back to being bean counters and tax collectors. It is just one of the many overlapping LE bureacracies. I went to our local air show last week. There, zipping around on Segways with training wheels wereThey saw it as stupid. I think it likely proves-out to the the verdict on it too.The ATF would seem to be among the beneficiaries. At budget time they were touting the straw buyer busts (that went nowhere) and asking for more money.Who benefits from the gun trade to Mexico? The manufacturers and the Cartels. That's about it. They would like the ATF as risk adverse as possible. Dragging them in front of Congress will go a long ways towards that.
Why do you suppose the agents who originally broke this story came forward? I think it's because they saw a pointless and risky operation, not to mention an illegal one, going on, and decided to protect the integrity of their agency by blowing the whistle. You like to guess motives. How about theirs?
Since then, all that has happened is that people have repeated what they said and asked questions about it. The story spread from gun blogs to more mainstream news sources, and eventually even to the NRA and Congress, finally making it to the Washington Post after a while.
Those guys did not tell their story hoping that no one would repeat it. They had to be hoping something like this would happen. Why would they do that? Were they trying to benefit the manufacturers or the cartels?
There are always going to be ill-conceived attempts to take down criminals in terrible conditions to do so. Why do some people feel the need to attribute terrible goals and nefarious plots to the ATF? They want them to go away, and for them it is best this must not be handled through channels but as publicly as possible. Congressional investigations, no less, for a failed covert attempt at tracking down some bad guys in Mexico. Should have been handled on the QT. There may be informants in there who are put in danger. Happens all the time with responsible congressman.
They got approval from DOJ, so if it was illegal, then that is but your opinion. It get's pretty hard to sort out when we deal with crime in a foreign country, as they were tasked to do.
I think this will all succeed in producing the most risk-adverse culture in the ATF as can be made to exist. Who benefits from that?
Kind of goes along with the cite I gave earlier. In part,Cui Bono? All of us."The ATF is bad. They must be eliminated, or at least, rendered harmless....."The motives for letting guns loose in Mexico in criminal hands, with no apparent way to track them, are uncertain and unproven. I suspect idiocy as the main motive.
Assigning motives is wrong, and I'm sure you agree it's wrong even when the New York Times does it.![]()
Meanwhile, it looks like the information Congress has requested on this operation did not arrive yesterday, and the acting ATF director has cancelled his planned testimony to Congress today.
The Mexicans are pissed and questions remain, as does the stonewall.
Among the outstanding questions: who knew of and approved the Fast and Furious operation, and when? Was a gunwalking strategy deployed in other cases? What was the evidence that caused officials to release two illegal immigrants arrested at the gunning down of Agent Terry? Why has a third been held, but not charged in the murder? If none of the men arrested the night of Agent Terry's murder were responsible, are there any leads as to whoever was? What weapon was used to kill Agent Terry? Where are all the weapons that ATF allegedly let walk into Mexico, but have not been recovered? Of the weapons that have been recovered, in what crimes were they used?
Cui bono?
The BATF was a created to track and tax production of Alcohol (so taxes can be collected), Tobacco (so taxes can be collected) and firearms (for god knows what reason, I suspect to monitor adherence to license regulations for gun dealers).
They had no brief to run around starting raids to search private property. We already had federal agencies with that responsibility who could very well do the Law Enforcement vs. monitoring and reporting function which is their real brief.)
You may google 'prohibition' and discover that the FBI actually prosecuted the illegal producers and smugglers of alcohol, not the BATF. Incidentally, this is how the DEA should work as well.
The BATF pretty much fucks up everything it undertakes on it's own. Waco is a good example.
Google 'BATF success', it's amusing.