Obama's Mexican Gunrunning Operation

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Those were not ATF agents working in Mexico. One was a Border Patrol agent, and I think the other worked for ICE, IIRC. ATF has a Mexico Country Office (what a clunky name) but no one there seems to have known about the gunwalking. <_<

The fact that it "could be" that approval for this operation came from the top is what makes me think Congress needs to investigate.

The big question is: what did Obama/Holder know and when did they know it?

The fact that the administration has hired a spin doctor is further proof that Holder is not the man to answer that question, as if any more proof were needed.
No more proof of what is needed?

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?

 

wabbiteer

Super Anarchist
9,781
0
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?
Why would a company refer to employees stealing company property in their employee handbook unless that was happening?

Make giant leaps of logic much?

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?
Why would a company refer to employees stealing company property in their employee handbook unless that was happening?

Make giant leaps of logic much?
Do any companies "closely monitor and approve" employee theft?

Make silly analogies much? :lol:

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?
The whole point of the program was to try to stem that from continuing Tom. You're not viewing that line in the manual as a sort of Freudian slip of a specific secret program, are you?

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?
The whole point of the program was to try to stem that from continuing Tom. You're not viewing that line in the manual as a sort of Freudian slip of a specific secret program, are you?



If your boat is leaking, do you stem the flow by making the hole bigger?

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Analysis of ATF Field Manual on gunwalking

There are also practical considerations that may require bringing investigations to a conclusion or dictate a change in investigative tactics prior to the identification of persons directly affiliated with the DTOs. Examples include high volume trafficking investigations in which numerous diverted firearms identifiable with one or more purchasers are being used in violent crimes and recovered by law enforcement, and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction. (Emphasis supplied, MBV.) In some instances, the best answer may be to provide actionable intelligence to other law enforcement agencies and/or the Government of Mexico.
Wabbit, why would the ATF field manual refer to large volumes of guns disappearing without being tracked unless that was happening?
The whole point of the program was to try to stem that from continuing Tom. You're not viewing that line in the manual as a sort of Freudian slip of a specific secret program, are you?



If your boat is leaking, do you stem the flow by making the hole bigger?
Do you fish for tuna with tofu?

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Issa Looking at Field Agent Holder

Issa reaffirmed his certainty that the decision to allow guns to “walk” into Mexico was one made in Washington, not in border cities or local ATF offices as DOJ officials have contended.
“We’re not done but what we do know is that the decision for this was not made in Tucson or El Paso or anywhere else,” he said. “It was made in Washington.”
"Looks like Iran Contra"? Now that is interesting. As I recall, Reagan knew nothing about that.

By golly, the hunt is on for for the Ollie North in this now! What were they trading arms to drug lords for though? Drugs? Would that be juicy stuff for campaign season or what?

Pretty silly stuff, Tom. The head of the ATF and somebody in justice signed off on this plan, that is fairly assumable, but it's a leap to assume they conceived it, especially the lawyers in Justice.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Issa Looking at Field Agent Holder

Issa reaffirmed his certainty that the decision to allow guns to "walk" into Mexico was one made in Washington, not in border cities or local ATF offices as DOJ officials have contended.
"We're not done but what we do know is that the decision for this was not made in Tucson or El Paso or anywhere else," he said. "It was made in Washington."
"Looks like Iran Contra"? Now that is interesting. As I recall, Reagan knew nothing about that.

By golly, the hunt is on for for the Ollie North in this now! What were they trading arms to drug lords for though? Drugs? Would that be juicy stuff for campaign season or what?

Pretty silly stuff, Tom. The head of the ATF and somebody in justice signed off on this plan, that is fairly assumable, but it's a leap to assume they conceived it, especially the lawyers in Justice.
Reagan knew, or should have known, how his minions were implementing foreign policy, and the same can be said of Obama.

Ollie was trading arms for drugs, this time they seem to have been trading guns for straw purchaser arrests and anti-gun propaganda, but perhaps there is more to it. In any case, the story probably won't be told during campaigns, any more than the story of what went on in Mena, Arkansas was told. <_<

This mysterious "somebody in Justice" sure is hard to find, isn't he? Perhaps because, once found, people will want to start asking that person why he was implementing his own foreign policy. I do not think anyone besides the President himself should be authorizing a program like this one.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Uh oh. The DEA found some "walked" guns in a drug bust, and now the ATF wants them.

Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Why would ATF want those weapons, I wonder? Maybe they will help to identify the elusive person at Justice who approved this ridiculous operation? :rolleyes:

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Uh oh. The DEA found some "walked" guns in a drug bust, and now the ATF wants them.

Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Why would ATF want those weapons, I wonder? Maybe they will help to identify the elusive person at Justice who approved this ridiculous operation? :rolleyes:

What does "keep them separate" mean Tom? Are they saying the do not want a complicated chain of custody problem in their case, or are they saying that they do not want the ATF to have them?

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Uh oh. The DEA found some "walked" guns in a drug bust, and now the ATF wants them.

Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Why would ATF want those weapons, I wonder? Maybe they will help to identify the elusive person at Justice who approved this ridiculous operation? :rolleyes:

What does "keep them separate" mean Tom? Are they saying the do not want a complicated chain of custody problem in their case, or are they saying that they do not want the ATF to have them?
The article also uses the word "hold" with reference to the guns, so I think that answers your question. At least, that's how I interpret what she wrote.

Maybe someone other than CBS is covering this story, and you can find a corroborating link? :lol:

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,855
Uh oh. The DEA found some "walked" guns in a drug bust, and now the ATF wants them.

Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Why would ATF want those weapons, I wonder? Maybe they will help to identify the elusive person at Justice who approved this ridiculous operation? :rolleyes:

What does "keep them separate" mean Tom? Are they saying the do not want a complicated chain of custody problem in their case, or are they saying that they do not want the ATF to have them?
The article also uses the word "hold" with reference to the guns, so I think that answers your question. At least, that's how I interpret what she wrote.

Maybe someone other than CBS is covering this story, and you can find a corroborating link? :lol:
We'll get the Black Helicopters right on that.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Uh oh. The DEA found some "walked" guns in a drug bust, and now the ATF wants them.

Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Why would ATF want those weapons, I wonder? Maybe they will help to identify the elusive person at Justice who approved this ridiculous operation? :rolleyes:

What does "keep them separate" mean Tom? Are they saying the do not want a complicated chain of custody problem in their case, or are they saying that they do not want the ATF to have them?
The article also uses the word "hold" with reference to the guns, so I think that answers your question. At least, that's how I interpret what she wrote.

Maybe someone other than CBS is covering this story, and you can find a corroborating link? :lol:
We'll get the Black Helicopters right on that.
I think those are being used to ferry messages from NRA headquarters to their pet ATF agents regarding when to blow the whistle on stupid programs in order to best enhance dealer sales. At least, I assume the communication you imagine took place was covert, so why not helicopter messengers? :lol:

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
Like I said before, bureaucracies leave paper trails. We'll find out exactly what happened soon enough. I'm sure a few heads will roll. But I'm sure that it won't be enough to satisfy the people who want no ATF and no restrictions, whatsoever, on firearms transactions.
Oh no! An army of strawmen who want no laws at all are coming? :eek: When do they get here? :lol:

Chronologically speaking, when is "soon enough" anyway? This thread has been up a couple of months now, and the scandal broke about 6 months ago. How many months should it take to learn a name?

In addition to the obvious conflict of interest problem with the Justice Department investigating itself, I'm starting to think there is also a competence problem.

 

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
It's starting to get ugly...

A Republican aide on Issa’s committee this week said DOJ has since increased its level of assistance and has been more accommodating to the panel’s requests for documents and interviews with DOJ and ATF officials.
Rep. Elijah Cummings (Md.), the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said. “We want to be sure that whatever investigation there is, is thorough, but that it does not interfere with Justice’s investigations.

“I think Justice has made reasonable efforts to extend themselves to us and ask us to work with them so that we can still get the information we want and at the same time they can protect their witnesses. I think the problem here is, is the question … How deeply is Justice itself implicated?” he added.
Good question, Elijah! Should Justice answer it?

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pertinacious Tom

Super Anarchist
60,973
1,628
Punta Gorda FL
At least The Hill began reporting some of this story with that article, months behind many other media sources. Have a look at what they were reporting when this thread was started.

No mention of the gun sales to repeat straw buyers, no mention of the guns disappearing in Mexico, no mention of the reappearance of one of those guns at Agent Terry's murder scene.

Just a diatribe pushing more "common sense" gun control and more ATF funding. Bias affects what we perceive as important, and I guess the ATF's misbehavior just does not seem all that important when you're busy explaining why they need more rules, more power, and more money (to solve a problem they are busy creating in the first place).

 
Top