Offshore harnesses / PFDs, yet again

[Islander Jack]

I don't use jacklines. I clip and unclip to/from windward stays, the spinnaker pole attachment ring, and a handy windward padeye near the bow. Is this smart or dumb?

Also, when falling overboard I plan to fall to windward.

 

[Rain Man]

I don't use jacklines. I clip and unclip to/from windward stays, the spinnaker pole attachment ring, and a handy windward padeye near the bow. Is this smart or dumb?

Also, when falling overboard I plan to fall to windward.

Murphy invented the Chinese to deal with you......

 

[Herr Wizard]

From what I've read and discussed with folks in the know at last year's SAS seminar, the Spinlock issue on Uncontrollable Urge was due more to improper fit/wear of the Spinlock Deckvest. Since I own a Deckvest with the Prosensor autoinflator, I really wanted to know what happened. After learning about the fit issue, I immediately installed my crotch straps and now wear them anytime I have the Deckvest on. As a nice byproduct of doing this, the Deckvest fits much better and is far more comfortable with the crotch straps in place with one big caveat: if you squat down, make sure you move the crotch straps back into proper position before you stand up. Otherwise, you're in for a few seconds of discomfort as it critiques your lack of technique.

Any time I take my Deckvest on a plane, I physically remove the CO2 cylinder so there can be no accidental inflation. I believe this is required by airline regulation.

One last plug for Spinlock, when I did my annual inspection last Spring, I found my strobe light was inoperative. I notified Spinlock and they immediately sent out a replacement light which they covered under the 5-year warranty (I had about 8 months left on it) on the PFD. When it arrived, it turned out to be their new Pylon Light which is a far better design then their old lights.

For tether, I use the 2-tether Kong system with the big beefy carabiners and QR shackle.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I think I need to clarify this:

Auto Inflate is bad if you are wearing the PFD in the airplane because it will possibly inflate and trap you in the airplane in case of a water landing.

This is not related to carrying the vest as luggage/carry-on on a commercial flight.

Loving my Spinlock and just dug out my old manual only West Marine for a flying trip. Auto inflate IN the plane is bad

Uh oh. I'm about to acquire a Deckvest. I want the Hammer inflator?

 

[dacapo]

Haven't been offshore in a dog's age. What are the cool kids liking for harnesses / PFDs / harness-PFD combos these days?

The two that generally get the best rating for comfort in tests over here are the Spinlock and the Kru Sport Pro.

The Kru Sports Pro.....Santa is getting me one after checking one out last week..........

 

[sidmon]

Just get the nagging sense that Mr. Jackson would want a good discussion on seeing what works -and doesn't work- when in comes to effective tethering...

http://host.madison.com/news/local/obituaries/jackson-greg/article_ade5c8fe-ef1d-5841-a945-286a9a9eb70e.html

Greg built a family of colleagues who are respected, valued, heard, and who have the unquestioned freedom to fail". Matt continued, "Be open to challenge and be open to being wrong. Greg was able to step back, re-evaluate and change course if needed. He would seek out a mistake, even if it was his own, and focus on what we learned from it.

Sidmon I'll try and channel your thoughts with regard to to this subject and Mr Jackson's incident. Firstly, until relatively recent times I have used neither a PFD or a tether offshore, crewed, short-handed and solo, all oceans and all up at least twice around the planet. I have never seen anyone go overboard offshore in those decades. Coastal a few but not that many.

In the last 13 years, Mr Jackson was the second person with whom I shared well less than six degrees of separation who went over the side while tethered and perished here on Lake Michigan. Those are the two I am familiar with, and in the five years I've been up here on the lake, several more fatal MOB' -but I don't believe they were tethered- have occurred as well

While Mr. Jackson had crew aboard, both were avid singlehanders (the other gent was participating in a scramble) so its a given that they took the concept seriously. Also, both were lost when they went forward is rough conditions to take care of something at the bow. A similarity in only two cases, but worth mentioning.

In all cases of tether related deaths worldwide on crewed vessels that were the subject of an incident report and which I'm aware of, all tethers incorporated the common clip, not snap shackle design.

I would be surprised if Mr Jackson was wearing anything but that same clip type. If correct I'm sure he and those others would like to re-evaluate that approach, if such an opportunity exists for these poor souls.

If you watch that second video, you will see Greg was wearing (at times) a West Marine PFD with integral harness, along with what appear to WM jacklines as well. Same equipment I have. Given the preponderance of WM equipment apparent in the vid is WM, ts reasonable to assume his tether was West Marine as well. They have been selling ISAF approved clips on tethers since 2010 and recalled older ones.

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_6/product_update/West_Marine_Updates_Recalled_Tether_10452-1.html

Therefore you supposition is pretty unlikely about the type of tehter he was using in July of this year.

However, the earlier case, which occurred in 2002, and its quite possible the old inadequate clips could have played a role.

Still of the view that even though the Practical Boat test used a dummy, it vividly demonstrates that if you've gone over the side tethered, then you are in an in extremis situation that you could ever find yourself in...

 

[oreana]

I sew my own tethers and harnesses. I have several designs that I am evaluating.

I like 2 leg tethers with 3 foot and 6 foot legs. A tether needs a quick release snap shackle that has an easily found handle to pull for release in a bad situation. I use a loop of 1/16 inch ss wire with with a handle of four 1/2 inch beads to pull the piston in the snap shackle. Many snap shackles use a key ring type of connector to the snap shackle piston, which might just pull off in a stressed situation. The hooks at the ends of my tethers are mountain climbing type of locking gate hooks.

Harnesses are another item that seems simple, but there are many different styles. I have come to the conclusion that inflatable harnesses are not suitable for me for extended cruising for the following reasons: one can never be absolutely sure such a harness will inflate and once a harness is successfully inflated one is limited to the number of backup re-arming kits on the boat to continue to use the inflatable harness. A harness that fits over a non-inflatable flotation device may have extra bulk when worn, but it is a sure thing. If care is used in the placement of jacklines and connectors, a harness and tether can also be worn with no flotation at all.

Harness design begs the question: does a harness only prevent a crew overboard situation, or does one expect the harness to pull a crewmember out of the water? Any harness that is expected to pull an unresponsive swimmer out of the water will require leg straps.

I sew a type of harness that fits over a non-inflating PFD using a yellow safety vest as worn on construction sites. I sew 1 inch flat webbing around the shoulders and for the leg straps inside the vest. For the main weight carrying waist strap I use 2 inch nylon tubing with metal rings sewn for tether attachment. Besides increased visibility, the vest situates the webbing in the correct place on the body, and prevents twists and incorrect donning. Also the crotch straps are biased to avoid the wearers "junk" when the weight of the wearer comes on the harness. This kind of harness will pull a body back aboard.

I do not sew the fold in my tethers to indicate that they have been stressed, as in the red flag exposed when a certain weight is placed on the tether. First of all, a good tether will pull a body apart before failing. No marine industry standard exists for the amount of weight to expose such a flag. I do believe in using a contrasting color of thread and inspecting the harness' seams regularly.

If you have an inflatable vest, have you ever jumped into the water with it on? I do this before my annual inspection of inflatable PFDs. It is a good idea to experience the amount of head support and the constriction of movement of this type of PFD. If you expect to swim any distance with an inflatable, it may surprise you. I have swum with my non-inflating PFD many times while water skiing.

An acquaintance has a sailboat with cabin windows that leak. The water that gets inside the boat pools in a locker where several inflating PFDs were stored. After an extensive rainstorm, all the PFDs had all been inflated, but the captains favorite personal PFD had seam holes that leaked the CO2 and he only found this faulty condition after the rainstorm. Just sayin...

 

[Rain Man]

All the inflatable vests have manual inflation tubes in case they don't inflate when you hit the water. It would take a little while to get them inflated but the feature is there. Practicing this with your vest is a good idea. Offshore if you run out of re-arming kits your inflatable vest is still better than nothing.

Most people don't realize that if the vest inflates it will press quite hard on their neck as they tend to over-inflate a bit, to the point where they will quickly get dizzy from lack of blood supply to the head. Users need to practice letting some air out through the valve - at night, in the dark, in big waves, you do not want to be learning how to do this for the first time.

The advice to jump in the water with your vest on before you have to rely on it in a real emergency is very good advice. Swimming with an inflatable vest on is very difficult.

 

[Snore]

I am really thinking about going from a harness only to a Spinlock. But the Spinlock does not have USCG approvals. Anyone know why it doesn't?

 

[Morgan Crewed]

Haven't been offshore in a dog's age. What are the cool kids liking for harnesses / PFDs / harness-PFD combos these days?

The two that generally get the best rating for comfort in tests over here are the Spinlock and the Kru Sport Pro.

The Kru Sports Pro.....Santa is getting me one after checking one out last week..........

+1 on the Kru Sport Pro

I bought mine about 4 years ago and love it. Since then they have redesigned it to make it even better – adding pockets and a slimmer profile.

Took me a while to find a seller in the states, but if these guys ship to the USA, then it would be a SCREAMING deal. http://marinestore.co.uk/Kru_Automatic_Sport_Pro_ISO_Lifejacket_with_Harness.html Alternatively, find someone going to the UK and have them buy one up for you.

This price sounds too good to be true, so make sure this is the model with: (1) auto inflate, (2) integral harness and (3) spray hood. At the quoted price that translates to $145 after the exchange rate and the 20% VAT rebate, but before shipping. Worth a shot.

 

[Suijin]

I am really thinking about going from a harness only to a Spinlock. But the Spinlock does not have USCG approvals. Anyone know why it doesn't?

AFAIK none of the inflatable PFDs that have integrated harnesses technically meet USCG approvals. I know that my Mustang does not, despite it being the most expensive model they make. I suspect the reason is that the qualifications for approval were not drafted with integrated harnesses in mind, not sure. In any event, it does not mean that they are not good products.

I think the claim/hypothesis of tethers being more dangerous than not misses an important point, which is the number of people who have been saved from being thrown overboard by virtue of wearing one. It's like saying that airbags in cars are dangerous because of the few people who have been suffocated by one, or the like. I have had one experience where I'm fairly certain a tether kept me on the boat, when it fell off a rogue wave at night while I was at the mast.

Relatedly, anyone who claims that becoming detached from the boat is not that big a deal has obviously never tried to recover someone offshore in less than ideal conditions. You have to stop the boat, which in a gale is easier said than done and can take some time depending on who's on deck, point of sail, etc. Then you have to get the boat back to where the person fell off, or your best guess of where they will be, then you have to actually find them, and then recover them. It's an exercise that is fraught with uncertainty in all but the most benign circumstances.

As far as jacklines go, they are only as effective as the thought that goes into their placement and installation. The preferred location is as close to the centerline of the boat as possible, for obvious reasons, and they should be as tight as possible, soaked wet and then stretched as tight as possible, usually with a winch. That said, I consider them a supplementary line of defense and use them only when moving between hard clip-in points.

I know quite a few people who have pronounced the Spinlock vests more comfortable than the Mustang vests, around the neck area in particular. My Mustang causes some discomfort around my neck during long watches but nothing to write home about, and I'm not bothering to replace it until it is past it's service life. But related to that, if your vest is not snug enough to be somewhat uncomfortable, it's probably not adjusted correctly. You don't want it coming off, period, or not orienting you face up if you're knocked unconscious.

While you're at it, it's probably a good idea to buy a model that has a spray hood. I think it was just last year, during the squall I forget where that at least one of the drown racers was found with a fully inflated and fitting PFD and the conclusion was that they had drown from intense wind-driven waves/spray.

And regarding transport on planes, I take the cylinder out of my PFD for flying, if only to keep my bag from exploding in the luggage compartment if the thing decides to fire off.

 

[Snore]

Suijin

Agree on all points but one. The Mustang is USCG approved- see http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C135%7C2290066&id=2290067

I stopped wearing the Mustang when I single hand for two reasons, one was that the comfort. Especially in SFLA where you can sail with a light shirt on.

 

[LB 15]

Indeed Pres' Ed.... standard RYA YM practice on MOB is go immediate crash tack.... and heave/hove to.....if you're up wind of the lost crew member you then neatly and slowly drift back down on them....with them leeward side...

Err no its not. For a start we don't have any 'standard practice' for MOB in the RYA training scheme. It depends on the size and type of boat and the number and strengh of the crew. We have a variety of preferred techniques that are taught. The crash tack should only be used if the casualty goes over the side when going up wind. To both remain close to the mob and get back down wind to make pick up approach. The 'hove to, drift down' is often used on larger boats like the clipper fleet, but on a smaller yacht it won't work. It may work in recovering a fender tied to a bucket with a boat hook but that is not a man over board. To recover the person back on board the boat must be stopped in the water. This can only happen if the boat is head to wind or close hauled and the mainsheet released. MOB drills need to include getting the dummy back on deck, not just polling them out of the water with a boat hook like a salmon.

 

[bodega87]

Haven't been offshore in a dog's age. What are the cool kids liking for harnesses / PFDs / harness-PFD combos these days?

The two that generally get the best rating for comfort in tests over here are the Spinlock and the Kru Sport Pro.

The Kru Sports Pro.....Santa is getting me one after checking one out last week..........

+1 on the Kru Sport Pro

I bought mine about 4 years ago and love it. Since then they have redesigned it to make it even better – adding pockets and a slimmer profile.

Took me a while to find a seller in the states, but if these guys ship to the USA, then it would be a SCREAMING deal. http://marinestore.co.uk/Kru_Automatic_Sport_Pro_ISO_Lifejacket_with_Harness.html Alternatively, find someone going to the UK and have them buy one up for you.

This price sounds too good to be true, so make sure this is the model with: (1) auto inflate, (2) integral harness and (3) spray hood. At the quoted price that translates to $145 after the exchange rate and the 20% VAT rebate, but before shipping. Worth a shot.

Def check, b/c this doesn't appear to have the crotch straps and tether hookup I have on mine. It really is such a great vest. Terribly hard to find in the states though.

 

[WoobaGooba]

Haven't been offshore in a dog's age. What are the cool kids liking for harnesses / PFDs / harness-PFD combos these days?

The two that generally get the best rating for comfort in tests over here are the Spinlock and the Kru Sport Pro.

The Kru Sports Pro.....Santa is getting me one after checking one out last week..........

Where, how were you able to do that? Tough to find in the states. Thanks

 

[Murphness]

Spinlock w/ a glowfast tether

 

[MoeAlfa]

Any opinions on the Crewsaver Ergofit series? They have some very serious looking jackets with massive buoyancy and and AIS transmitters, available at great prices from a discounter in the UK. I am thinking of getting one for next season unless someone tells me they're rubbish.

 

[Rantifarian]

Spinlock w/ a glowfast tether

Are those glow fast tethers good? I looked at them when they were first out, but never got around to replacing my old stormy seas

 

[Presuming Ed]

Any opinions on the Crewsaver Ergofit series? They have some very serious looking jackets with massive buoyancy and and AIS transmitters, available at great prices from a discounter in the UK. I am thinking of getting one for next season unless someone tells me they're rubbish.

Weren't around when I bought my Spinlock, but I have heard subsequently that the S/lock, the Kru Sport Pro and the Crewsaver Ergofit were all the work of the same designer. Don 't know if that's true, though.

Crewsaver are a reputable company, though. They supply the RNLI (Lifeboats) with life jackets.

All depends on fit and feel.

 

[tomasis]

Spinlock and Kru Sport Pro seem popular.

Wouldn't trust Crewsaver, one time the test failed .. I would avoid any cheap generic, mass produced brands