Olympic Event / Class selection

[Dawg]

Seriously though, they should have

• 
  
   
• Combined M/F 4 person Skiff (2 of each sex and over canvased to the hilt)
  
• Combined M/F 2 person Skiff (1 of each sex and over canvased to the hilt)
  
• Seperate Mens and Womens class Single handed Moth type foiler
  

And that is it. Maybe a cat class, I douno, but it should be a M/F combined crew too.

Screw (ditch) Keel boats and match racing..............Windsurfers and Kite boarders belong in the surf.

Stop separating the men and women except in the single handed classes, though in a moth I bet some women could give most guys a run for the money.

 

[redstar]

Setting a sport up as mixed is a craven compromise on the Olympic ideal of excellence

At the last Hobie 16 Worlds, mixed crews finished in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. Looks like in the right sort of cat, mixed crews work very well indeed.

Open is a joke and always has been - it's an insult to women.

The point is that the Hobie 16 WORLDS ARE OPEN....

so... your next statement " Open is a joke" is just inexplicable.

Why is OPEN an insult to women? It's a boat... put together your best team and have at it.... A level gender blind playing field.

I mean that open is a joke in the classes that have been designated as open at the Olympics. In 2008, 49ers, Tornados and Finn. In 2004, the Finn was a men's class, but the Laser standard was open. In 2000 it was the Laser, 49er, Star, Tornado and Soling.

Either choose classes that are genuinely a level playing field, or mandate mixed. Telling women that they are represented equally because they can compete in a Finn or a Star is insulting.

 

[Dawg]

I mean that open is a joke in the classes that have been designated as open at the Olympics. In 2008, 49ers, Tornados and Finn. In 2004, the Finn was a men's class, but the Laser standard was open. In 2000 it was the Laser, 49er, Star, Tornado and Soling.

Either choose classes that are genuinely a level playing field, or mandate mixed. Telling women that they are represented equally because they can compete in a Finn or a Star is insulting.

Norlin MKIII 2.4mR works but I doubt the IOC and ISAF have the balls to put in the Olympic line up.

The last 2 years in a disabled sailor (paraplegic) has whooped all the able bodied sailors in the 2.4mR International Open Worlds. There are quite a few women who are competitive too.

They will never do it.

 

[mark1234]

The IOC caps the number of competitors they will pay for. So, the tornado class is capped at 18? countries.... if you went with a single hander... that would double the number of countries who could send a representative. With more slots available... you would see more countries supporting a sailor to compete in the games. You would have to establish a qualification standard....the IOC wants no part of Eddie the Eagle.

I think you make an outstanding point Alive..

The USA model is now selecting for committed sailors first coupled with a record of accomplishment at collegiate and world levels. They feel that these sailors can hop into any class and quickly get into the game.. Training will bring them up to medal caliber. The notion that you need a strong domestic one design fleet to provide "Olympic talent" is sooo 20th century.

Hell,... the Chinese team beat the American team in China on T's this cycle... They got trained up in a few years.

Making a bunch of slots available will get lots of countries involved forging training alliances to support their athlete.

Great Solution! which really matches the IOC requirements but has the good ol boys squirming in their padded shorts!

Hmm.. That I didn't realise (the IOC paid), assumed it was the entering country, that said, I'm quite sure that it's not as simple as twice as many singlehanders; there are hull costs and the like which don't halve.

 

[Steve AUS]

Why do they have to have open all mixes, not against it, do it if you want, are there any other Olympic sports that do?

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

The IOC caps the number of competitors they will pay for. So, the tornado class is capped at 18? countries.... if you went with a single hander... that would double the number of countries who could send a representative. With more slots available... you would see more countries supporting a sailor to compete in the games. You would have to establish a qualification standard....the IOC wants no part of Eddie the Eagle.

I think you make an outstanding point Alive..

The USA model is now selecting for committed sailors first coupled with a record of accomplishment at collegiate and world levels. They feel that these sailors can hop into any class and quickly get into the game.. Training will bring them up to medal caliber. The notion that you need a strong domestic one design fleet to provide "Olympic talent" is sooo 20th century.

Hell,... the Chinese team beat the American team in China on T's this cycle... They got trained up in a few years.

Making a bunch of slots available will get lots of countries involved forging training alliances to support their athlete.

Great Solution! which really matches the IOC requirements but has the good ol boys squirming in their padded shorts!

Hmm.. That I didn't realise (the IOC paid), assumed it was the entering country, that said, I'm quite sure that it's not as simple as twice as many singlehanders; there are hull costs and the like which don't halve.

FYI, you are not quoting me above.....

However I will answer. The IOC does not limit sailing to boats, only a total Athlete quoter, which last I heard was 400, however beleive it is lower now with the Big T gone. The IOC is not concerned with the cost of total equiptment, but individual equiptment used by teams despite most teams having 2 or more boats. I would imagine the IOC would like to see more countries qualifying though (within reason)

 

[mark1234]

Sorry, my bad on the quoting.

What a retarded system it is.. so maybe singlehanders would mean more boats. Sadly I don't think singlehanders are entirely representative of sailing, nor (in general) do they make good TV. Of course I'm every bit as biassed towards small overpowered skiff and foiler types as the cat sailors are towards their things

 

[Dawg]

Sorry, my bad on the quoting.

What a retarded system it is.. so maybe singlehanders would mean more boats. Sadly I don't think singlehanders are entirely representative of sailing, nor (in general) do they make good TV. Of course I'm every bit as biassed towards small overpowered skiff and foiler types as the cat sailors are towards their things

It is about the number of medals they have to possibly account for.

A double handed boat means 2 gold, 2 silver and 2 bronze.

A single handed boat means 1 gold, 1 silver and 1 bronze.

So for every double handed class you need to eliminate a single handed so a medal can shift to the double handed class.

Given the cost of the medals they can save substantial money or include other events that are more watched and generate income for the IOC.

Simple economics. We have seen the same practice in the Paralympics.

 

[ebnelson]

Looks like they're actually trying to mix it up and get interesting (instead of the opposite). I'm watching curiously if they'll stick to a windsurfer (probably RS:X) or adopt a kite, the only thing I don't know is how 1-design the kites could be (to be supplied). It would be awesome if we saw multis in there again, a whole side of sailing that deserves to be there. Lastly, all the dinghies, could we end up with 3 double-handed classes and 3+ single-handed classes?

It would be relatively inexpensive to provide one design kites as compared to complete RS:X boards. Kite racing is a lot of fun, but I'm not sure what a good idea it is to make it an olympic sport. There is something nice about being able to pump a windsurfer back to shore after the wind dies. It beats swimming a kite in! Rio would be a good place to race kites though. This has Gebi's hand written all over it. I'll have to send him a note.

 

[Dawg]

Looks like they're actually trying to mix it up and get interesting (instead of the opposite). I'm watching curiously if they'll stick to a windsurfer (probably RS:X) or adopt a kite, the only thing I don't know is how 1-design the kites could be (to be supplied). It would be awesome if we saw multis in there again, a whole side of sailing that deserves to be there. Lastly, all the dinghies, could we end up with 3 double-handed classes and 3+ single-handed classes?

It would be relatively inexpensive to provide one design kites as compared to complete RS:X boards. Kite racing is a lot of fun, but I'm not sure what a good idea it is to make it an olympic sport. There is something nice about being able to pump a windsurfer back to shore after the wind dies. It beats swimming a kite in! Rio would be a good place to race kites though. This has Gebi's hand written all over it. I'll have to send him a note.

I hate to be the one to say it, Kites do not belong in the Olympics.

The only thing that would be fun to watch would be who can jump the highest and that is it. Watching sailboats race is boring enough.

Now maybe if you used something sharp on your control lines to cut your competition's kite to shreds like fighting kites, that might be fun to watch.

Don't get me wrong, I love sailing, all aspects of it but after watching real sailing and kite sailing then Land Sailing and Kite buggies, I gotta scratch my head and wonder WTF. It may be fun as a recreation but as a real sport.................it's like watching that stupid mogul freestyle sking.................It is a participatory thing.

KIting is all about big air and that is it. Reaching back and forth eventually gets boring in any boat or board or craft...........there has to be more

I love sailing but sailing in the Olympics SUCKS. All it does is raise the cost of sailing (for the classes in the games).

 

[morrisre]

Chances of an Olympic host also having a suitably consistently windy venue with all the right facilities to make (any form of) sailing spectacular?

Chances of the choice of sailing venue on this basis informing in any significant way the choice of the host for the Olympic Games?

 

[One of Five]

oh goody, more EX-Olympic Classes in the making..

the Vintage Games are going to grow even bigger...

 

[ebnelson]

Looks like they're actually trying to mix it up and get interesting (instead of the opposite). I'm watching curiously if they'll stick to a windsurfer (probably RS:X) or adopt a kite, the only thing I don't know is how 1-design the kites could be (to be supplied). It would be awesome if we saw multis in there again, a whole side of sailing that deserves to be there. Lastly, all the dinghies, could we end up with 3 double-handed classes and 3+ single-handed classes?

It would be relatively inexpensive to provide one design kites as compared to complete RS:X boards. Kite racing is a lot of fun, but I'm not sure what a good idea it is to make it an olympic sport. There is something nice about being able to pump a windsurfer back to shore after the wind dies. It beats swimming a kite in! Rio would be a good place to race kites though. This has Gebi's hand written all over it. I'll have to send him a note.

I hate to be the one to say it, Kites do not belong in the Olympics.

The only thing that would be fun to watch would be who can jump the highest and that is it. Watching sailboats race is boring enough.

Now maybe if you used something sharp on your control lines to cut your competition's kite to shreds like fighting kites, that might be fun to watch.

Don't get me wrong, I love sailing, all aspects of it but after watching real sailing and kite sailing then Land Sailing and Kite buggies, I gotta scratch my head and wonder WTF. It may be fun as a recreation but as a real sport.................it's like watching that stupid mogul freestyle sking.................It is a participatory thing.

KIting is all about big air and that is it. Reaching back and forth eventually gets boring in any boat or board or craft...........there has to be more

I love sailing but sailing in the Olympics SUCKS. All it does is raise the cost of sailing (for the classes in the games).

Big air kiteboarding events are boring to watch and complete in. That's why they don't do them anymore. I think watching kites course race would be the same level of interest as watching small boats race, at least for my fellow American public. The decision, however, is between windsurfing and kiteboarding. From the audience and the number of participants point of view kites are the winner.

I'm more or less of the same opinion of Olympic sailing as you. It has a long history though, so I'll leave it to those who dream of going to the Olympics to see the value in it.

/monthly_10_2010/post-29691-086380200%201287326871_thumb.jpg

 

[Plumber]

Well the proposal is first vote to lock the M/W boards, M/W Lasers, and M/W skiffs as "core" classes.

Then they pick four out of the following six, M/W keelboat, M/W 2nd singlehanded dinghy, mixed multis, mixed 470. Where the 2nd M's singlehanded is designated as the Finn.

So the Finn could still be in, and the Star (as keelboat class tbd), and no mixed 470 or multihull at all... which would be disappointing IMHO

Seems to me like this could go either way- it could set up the olympic classes with some new flair- kites, multihull, mixed gender fleets, or it could lock in the old, with the only bright spot a women's skiff class

The message out of IOC is pretty clear - let go of the old gear and the old ideas, or get out of the Olympics. Stick with low cost, one design, gender balanced options that can grow in new markets.

I like the FInn, but for them to stay in with an equal gender balance, it would probably have to be at the expense of either the multis or the keelboats. They'll put up a good fight but I can't see them winning that.

And if the men's keelboat goes to an evaluation, I can't see the Star sticking around. It'd probably go to something like the SB3, or one of the smaller Melges - something fast that's one design and mass produced.

Star has even bigger support than the Finn, and will probably stay in the games. Too many people have a lot of money invested in these boats. One of the considerations of the IOC is the number of athletes attending the games. Finding a 2 men keelboat as competitive and globally used would be a huge challenge.

+ leave the Finn in there...big boys need love too. Nothing against the other dinghys, but with some of them you need to be smurf sized to sail them...

 

[Dawg]

Making Olympic sailing more visible to spectators (closer to shore) and more easily filmed by camera crews and getting POV cameras and Mics on board boats, is the single most important item for ISAF.

I stated earlier they should eliminate the separation of the sexes in sailing and make crewed boats have X number of men and X number of women on board.

Using the Moth as a multi-sex single handler looks to be a no brainer. The boat does not look to be a gut buster like the Finn or a full sailed Laser. I am sure if Anna T got in a Moth she would be pretty fast.

If ISAF wants to make sure sailing has a place in the Olympics in the future they had better get their heads out of the asses and wake up.

It's time for all keel boats in the Olympics to go bye-bye. Planning dinghies and Foilers (mono or cat) only that are competitive for either men or women who weigh 125 or 225, to sail should be in the Olympics. I for one am tired of big fat asses needed for the rail in sailing. It should be about skill and finesse not your size and size of your muscles.

 

[mustang__1]

well the performance boats like the 49er certainly place a value on muscle, but just as much on finesse. Maybe they'll make the 29erXX open as well so us midgets can play... course the moth keeps looking better and better... however a weight range of 125-225 for a dinghy is unreasonable - so long as the boat is going to be a performance boat. physics just arent in favor of it...

 

[Dawg]

well the performance boats like the 49er certainly place a value on muscle, but just as much on finesse. Maybe they'll make the 29erXX open as well so us midgets can play... course the moth keeps looking better and better... however a weight range of 125-225 for a dinghy is unreasonable - so long as the boat is going to be a performance boat. physics just arent in favor of it...

I look at the Moth and it just does not look like a boat that needs big muscles.

Is it so???

And we are not talking about Midgets you fraking knuckle dragging Cave Troll.

 

[mustang__1]

troll? thats a bit harsh... knuckle dragging...well someone's gotta do bow on the leadmines... The moth i've only sailed once and it was light so cant fully comment on it, but it was fairly obvious i would need more endurance training to sail it...i think overall the 49er requires more brute force in comparison...by a good margin...but thats based on not a whole lot of time in either boat.

 

[Dawg]

troll? thats a bit harsh... knuckle dragging...well someone's gotta do bow on the leadmines... The moth i've only sailed once and it was light so cant fully comment on it, but it was fairly obvious i would need more endurance training to sail it...

It was a joke, you seen the Cave Troll on Lord of the Rings.

I used to be 135lbs, 5'4", arms like Popeye and I've done bow on boats up to 40'. I would have liked to get on bigger boats but there were just too many clicks, you gotta know someone..............know what I mean. I learned a ton from having Kimo Worthington come on board our boat once in the mid 80's, he was family friends with the owner. Lessons that stayed with me till I got hurt. Kimo was capt'n for the Mushroom team for Koch back then. Learning what they were dong on the New AC boats was a great experience.

I probably should have been sailing 470's but there were none in my area and moving or buying one was out of the question.

 

[mustang__1]

im at the 40' mark now, hoping to move up a bit. course when you did bow all the boats had a real bow... none of this sprit bullshit... what was this thread about again?...Size wise im probably best to helm a 470 or a Moth. Both mean investing serious amounts of time working my helmsanship up after crewing for so long... Would like to do 49er's but it just doesnt seem to be in my genes.