OneSails drama.......

Boink

Super Anarchist
1,589
779
So with the advent of internet, shopping globally and not locally, and the fact that these purchasing behaviours are going to flourish rather than diminish, is it not time to establish small scale escrow facilities that allow demonstration by purchasers that they do have the financial capacity to fully pay the amount being sought, but only releases payment when goods are received.

This occurs for the big end of town in million dollar deal capacity. But seemingly not for smaller but still serious purchasing commitments.

But last year when I was seeking to buy a boat from thousands of miles away the amount was similar to the values being talked about here, yet I was incredibly aware of how foolish handing over $20k+ in a deal where sold unseen was one thing, but establishing that the vendor was who he claimed he was and actually had legal tenure of the item was equally a hazy topic.

My Bank was clueless in being able to help. 

But I cannot have been the first to have encountered these situations. I missed out on what was a very unusual and desirable opportunity for me.

But I couldn't have worn the potential loss. I still can't reconcile how this could have been done better. (It was during lockdowns).

The parallels to this sail situation are uncanny.

So who has what for resolving these issues. Escrow as a concept seems appropriate, but it has to be both Fair and trusted without getting so caught up in the Legal establishment that the Lawyer & Bank fees are unreasonable.
So with ever increasing evidence, both actual and anecdotal, that dealing with the wider marine industry that isn't in your neighbourhood, is fraught with real risk, what is the solution?

Internet commerce is all geared towards talking you globally not locally. Between VPN's and Geomasking, you are doing well not to find yourself in Sham Ally of Alibaba.com. 

I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?

Elsewhere I have seen the forum asking about Money Transfers, and have used Wise successfully. But even having done due diligence, you are contracting one business, for instance UK based and regulated to transfer to their sister Organisation in whatever country - with separate rules and regulations. Both of these Wise companies actually are subsidiaries of their Channel Island organisation. It was never transparent wherethe risk or liability lay at any given point, and more importantly which legal jurisdiction would preside, should god forbid your money goes missing. It didn't, but that is cold comfort.

So spare me the "do your due diligence" speech, related to the "Doh" comments levelled at the Wynne's above. There are and always will be snake oil salesmen around but We can share knowledge and experience here. That is the remaining power of this place.

Has anyone got payment solutions that would negate the problems we are witnessing here?

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
So with ever increasing evidence, both actual and anecdotal, that dealing with the wider marine industry that isn't in your neighbourhood, is fraught with real risk, what is the solution?

Internet commerce is all geared towards talking you globally not locally. Between VPN's and Geomasking, you are doing well not to find yourself in Sham Ally of Alibaba.com. 

I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?

Elsewhere I have seen the forum asking about Money Transfers, and have used Wise successfully. But even having done due diligence, you are contracting one business, for instance UK based and regulated to transfer to their sister Organisation in whatever country - with separate rules and regulations. Both of these Wise companies actually are subsidiaries of their Channel Island organisation. It was never transparent wherethe risk or liability lay at any given point, and more importantly which legal jurisdiction would preside, should god forbid your money goes missing. It didn't, but that is cold comfort.

So spare me the "do your due diligence" speech, related to the "Doh" comments levelled at the Wynne's above. There are and always will be snake oil salesmen around but We can share knowledge and experience here. That is the remaining power of this place.

Has anyone got payment solutions that would negate the problems we are witnessing here?
If you were cruising I would deal with head office and pay them for delivery to a local dealer.
( how could you possibly know where you can sail to during covid, is that another DOH?)
Local dealer can still get their margin so you get service
This has been done before

 
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Decay

New member
23
14
I don't know if buying local even helps in this case, if you lived in South Africa and bought sails from a your "local reputable loft" which happened to be wrapped up in this legal mess you'd still get shafted. Great Circle Sails was in my neighborhood. The escrow thing sounds like a good idea. 

 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,268
5,196
Canada
I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?
I used an online escrow service when buying a ~$2000 feathering prop from a guy in Australia.

No idea the name now (this was 2008) but it cost like 75$. Felt better about because I was wiring him the money otherwise. He could have kept it.

I sent the money to the service; the guy sent the prop with signature required via courier; I told the escrow service I got the prop; they released the money to him.

 

Yachticus

New member
3
2
Brisbane
- like many commentators on this story - there has been a disturbing jump to the side of moral indignation. - I'm in business as an owner - also a long-term sailor - and also someone who has a relationship with a One Sails loft - in another part of the world altogether. With the amount of hate and angst created by Keyboard warriors beggars' belief, this extends to businesses and people that have no relationship and control over any of the events - in another part of the world, Everyone is an armchair expert quite happily poised to throw shit and expert commentary without a clue. One lesson in my commercial life that stands the test of time. There are always three sides to any story - there is but one side here. Personally, I find it a bit rich for the commentariat ( and attendant sympathizers - who are quick to condemn) to be hanging shit on One Sails - whereas as in fact it has been a franchisee with a very long history of dirty dealing that is the root cause. It stands to reason that any competent business is a work in progress. In short when you bang on and smear and attack- those actions will have consequences far and wide.   --   More to the point you guys belong to the sailing community - we all well recognise there have been good guys and bad guys all along.  It would be nice to spike your cannons till you at least know the facts.

 
- like many commentators on this story - there has been a disturbing jump to the side of moral indignation. - I'm in business as an owner - also a long-term sailor - and also someone who has a relationship with a One Sails loft - in another part of the world altogether. With the amount of hate and angst created by Keyboard warriors beggars' belief, this extends to businesses and people that have no relationship and control over any of the events - in another part of the world, Everyone is an armchair expert quite happily poised to throw shit and expert commentary without a clue. One lesson in my commercial life that stands the test of time. There are always three sides to any story - there is but one side here. Personally, I find it a bit rich for the commentariat ( and attendant sympathizers - who are quick to condemn) to be hanging shit on One Sails - whereas as in fact it has been a franchisee with a very long history of dirty dealing that is the root cause. It stands to reason that any competent business is a work in progress. In short when you bang on and smear and attack- those actions will have consequences far and wide.   --   More to the point you guys belong to the sailing community - we all well recognise there have been good guys and bad guys all along.  It would be nice to spike your cannons till you at least know the facts.
I think the general consensus is that after being made aware of the issue/problem One Sails have displayed no good will whatsoever.It may be a rogue operator but if things were going well in the relationship they would be reaping the benefits in royalties and commissions.I don’t know the operator of the local operator of One Sails here but he enjoys an impeccable reputation so I believe Head Office needs to forge a solution even if they don’t have a legal obligation they certainly have a ethical one.

 

Boink

Super Anarchist
1,589
779
I used an online escrow service when buying a ~$2000 feathering prop from a guy in Australia.

No idea the name now (this was 2008) but it cost like 75$. Felt better about because I was wiring him the money otherwise. He could have kept it.

I sent the money to the service; the guy sent the prop with signature required via courier; I told the escrow service I got the prop; they released the money to him.
Thanks Z. Any clue as to the name of this service?

 

Yachticus

New member
3
2
Brisbane
I think the general consensus is that after being made aware of the issue/problem One Sails have displayed no good will whatsoever. It may be a rogue operator but if things were going well in the relationship they would be reaping the benefits in royalties and commissions. I don’t know the operator of the local operator of One Sails here but he enjoys an impeccable reputation so I believe Head Office needs to forge a solution even if they don’t have a legal obligation they certainly have a ethical one.
you have no idea what One Sails were doing   - I know for a fact they were mighty pissed off - not only head office - but those lofts who have been looking after their clients working very clean and successful  businesses. there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.  I am not a sail maker  - but I am a business owner - and bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 

 

Recidivist

Super Anarchist
there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.... 

... bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 
First point - it DID make me think - what on earth were OneSails doing getting involved with these crooks.  A franchisor is supposed to do due diligence when signing up a new franchisee.  After all, a bad choice can adversely affect the brand - which you allude to.

Second point - a bit harsh, IMHO.  It's not "bullshit commentary", it's people's reactions to the facts as presented.  If that is "little or any", there is plenty of opportunity for interested parties to put more information into the public domain.  Pretty fucking presumptious (again, IMHO) to describe this as "bullshit commentary" by "ill informed people" ("keyboard warriors") and call it a "bloody disgrace".

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
First point - it DID make me think - what on earth were OneSails doing getting involved with these crooks.  A franchisor is supposed to do due diligence when signing up a new franchisee.  After all, a bad choice can adversely affect the brand - which you allude to.

Second point - a bit harsh, IMHO.  It's not "bullshit commentary", it's people's reactions to the facts as presented.  If that is "little or any", there is plenty of opportunity for interested parties to put more information into the public domain.  Pretty fucking presumptious (again, IMHO) to describe this as "bullshit commentary" by "ill informed people" ("keyboard warriors") and call it a "bloody disgrace".

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Need to check but think the injured party was still sending money to The Sailmakers pty ltd after they were no longer a franchisee?
They had friends in SA but didnt get them to go and check??

All the facts have not been presented have they?

 

Steve_sos

New member
29
11
UK
Need to check but think the injured party was still sending money to The Sailmakers pty ltd after they were no longer a franchisee?
They had friends in SA but didnt get them to go and check??

All the facts have not been presented have they?
They say in the video that they did try to get friends to check on them but no luck.

 
Hate to say it...

This happens way more often than you might think.  Sail dealers can be some of the shadiest cats on the planet.  

You should always buy from a local sailmaker, not a sail dealer who unpacks boxes and his first look at the sail is moments before yours.  

When the sailmaker's brand name matches the last name of the owner and you can meet that guy, that is the only time you can be sure this stuff won't happen.

 

Foreverslow

Super Anarchist
you have no idea what One Sails were doing   - I know for a fact they were mighty pissed off - not only head office - but those lofts who have been looking after their clients working very clean and successful  businesses. there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.  I am not a sail maker  - but I am a business owner - and bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 
So why did One Sails give them a franchise if the loft was known to be dodgy?   A tiger never loses it's stripes as the saying goes.

Nothing but fucking greed to expand their global footprint and that shit is going to stick on them for a long time as the Internet never forgets.

I come from the 45 years in the corporate world at fortune 100 companies.

Fastest way to find a career ejector seat in your cubicle is to do ANYTHING that tarnishes the company brand and then not do everything humanly possible to resolve the situation.  Even sat in a customer escalation position which was to resolve such fuck ups on a world wide basis.  We had a saying: "first you fix the customer, then you fix the problem".  There are folks on this web site I would do this for in the background when they had an issue with our products even if there was not a contractual obligation. 

I would immediately contact the customer, apologize and get their side of the story, then call our office or vendor.  Then I would come up with an action plan to make the customer happy and ride herd on the office/vendor/engineering dept until the customer said they were happy.  I would be emailing that customer 1-2 times a week with updates so they knew what was going on.   I also ensured senior management (eg country manager and Hq VP) were aware of the issue and progress to resolve should the customer start making calls.  Made the customer feel empowered and this built a customer for life out of a clusterfuk.

Back in the 80s there was a company that ran an ad campaign in the WSJ that said "We hope something is screwed up just so we can show you how much we value your business".

The fact One Sails did not get involved until the shit hit the fan shows poor decision making.

Did they immediately have another loft build the sails and eat the cost as goodwill?

Have they terminated the relationship with the loft yet?

Sorry, no free pass...

When Hobie Cat came out with the SX18 in 1990, they came with factory sails made by Neil Pride in HK.   Turned out the new fangled laminated sails came apart after a couple sails. Hobie and Neil Pride sprung into action and replaced EVERYONE's sails for free no questions asked as soon as the problem arose. That is how you build a great name.

Now retired, I see small business owners fuck up all the time.  Be it garage owners, roofers, plumbers etc.

They forget they are there to provide a good or service to a customer.

They start to believe they are more important than the customer.

And they forget it costs 10x more to find a new customer than to keep a current one.

If you have done it right to address a customer issue, you can respond to any "keyboard warrior" with facts and the Internet is going to side with you.

 

Blue Crab

benthivore
15,389
2,389
Outer Banks
yeah, I've bought from local sailmakers. Quality and design were very good, delivery times were laughable. 
When I was at the Coconut Grove Sailing Club with active racing programs, one local sailmaker named Charlie something could absolutely be counted on ... to be late as shit, jumping aboard a customer's boat minutes before start. No matter, folks were happy to have him aboard and trimming. 

 

solosailor

Super Anarchist
3,876
709
San Francisco Bay
How much do you think the contract is worth? $15 - 20K    Main, genoa, trampoline, and new stack pack.
How big is their cat?    That coin should only cover the mainsail, if that.   A main, jib and A3 for a 50ft trimaran, 10 years ago was over $45k.

 

trisail

Member
483
465
I learnt from a friend in the South African boating industry that a leading person from within the industry went and spoke to the sailmaker about the non-performance and that the sails were being despatched within the next day or so.

Lets hope all ends well.

 
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