ORC57 #3 construction started...!

[ol70]

Do those front windows in the salon go down? If not, you’re going to need more ventilation in the tropics…….

I’m curious also how this boat will be fitted out to handle the tropics. A few questions:

1) Does it have A/C for those occasions you are in a marina or it’s just overbearingly hot?
2) How much solar are you planning to have?
3) I’m assuming there is no generator, so what did you go with for charging the batteries beyond just the engines.
4) What size of battery bank did you spec out? 48V, 24V or 12V?
5) how much refrigeration/freezer capacity will be onboard?

Just trying to gauge if there are any sacrifices made in the name of performance vs livability at anchor.

 

[Yves N.]

Very cool boat, looking forward to seeing you out there! We’re planning an Atlantic Circle this summer, so we’ll be in the Canaries and Cape Verdes in the Fall enroute.

BTW - we love having a boat without a liner, certainly more challenging to build but far superior for extended use in the tropics - nowhere for mold and mildew to hide. And lighter.

Do those front windows in the salon go down? If not, you’re going to need more ventilation in the tropics…….

Edit - regarding your leg #5, I think you may find that April is too early to be out in the North Atlantic!! My personal threshold to go north of Bermuda is June 1.

Indeed, good topic, planning for two more openings in the front windows to ensure air flow. There are two large openings on the roof as well as seen on the picture.

 

[Yves N.]

Wounder too if it doesn't eliminate a lot of squeaks and rattles too.

From my times on the ORC50 and from the last test on the ORC57, there are no squeaks at all. It is very quiet inside. I owned a Catana before and these ORC's are far quieter in similar conditions (for same sea and same speed I mean), no squeaks, no slamming, etc. there is no comparison... Of course, in "sport mode" (we once got close to 30 knots boat speed on an ORC50 between Ste Lucia and St Vincent), there are lots of noises, but that is expected . Our Catana reached close to 20knots boat speed a few times and it was really noisy and slamming hard...

 

[Yves N.]

The sides of the outside hulls are now getting ready for assembly to the one-piece inner hulls and bridge deck. Installation of the daggerboard trunks in progress. Quality of build is spectacular.

Daggerboard trunks in the making!

 

[Yves N.]

By the way, we have had some interest from potential US customers willing to charter our boat. So we are now looking for an agent willing to take part of this adventure...! The navigation program is in one of the posts above. Thanks

 

[Yves N.]

I’m curious also how this boat will be fitted out to handle the tropics. A few questions:

1) Does it have A/C for those occasions you are in a marina or it’s just overbearingly hot?
2) How much solar are you planning to have?
3) I’m assuming there is no generator, so what did you go with for charging the batteries beyond just the engines.
4) What size of battery bank did you spec out? 48V, 24V or 12V?
5) how much refrigeration/freezer capacity will be onboard?

Just trying to gauge if there are any sacrifices made in the name of performance vs livability at anchor.

Great questions!
Performance catamaran must be kept light. Everything is engineered for lightness, carbon mast, carbon bulkheads, carbon cross, etc. Our choice went for no AC and no genset, the yard can install genset and AC as on hull #1, no issue. But for us, we wanted to keep the boat very simple and very light. We have added extra fans in every cabin and the hatches are large to keep some airflow. We seldom stay in Marinas. We have sailed on a number of performance catamarans without genset and AC (Catana 401, Mumby 48 and ORC50) in the Med in the summer and in the Caribbeans in the winter, yes, some nights can be hot...
For the solar, the current plan is for 3x375W on the davits. We could install more on the bimini if needed. Battery bank is lithium 2x280Ah in 24V.
Fridge is 230ltrs and deep freezer is 130lts.
We have agreed for extra weight for a small washing machine (5kg) and reverse osmose (105 l/hr). We also enjoy scuba diving, so we are considering a small 6m3/hr air compressor and a few diving sets, that's under discussion with the builder. Finally, the dinghy will be 4m long x 1.8m wide, much larger than normal for this design, still at reasonable weight 170kg with 25hp outboard, fuel and small anchor/chain.
As for the performance, I will provide the sail plan and performance data in a future post.
I hope this answer your questions. Let me know if you would like further details!

 

[ol70]

Great questions!
Performance catamaran must be kept light. Everything is engineered for lightness, carbon mast, carbon bulkheads, carbon cross, etc. Our choice went for no AC and no genset, the yard can install genset and AC as on hull #1, no issue. But for us, we wanted to keep the boat very simple and very light. We have added extra fans in every cabin and the hatches are large to keep some airflow. We seldom stay in Marinas. We have sailed on a number of performance catamarans without genset and AC (Catana 401, Mumby 48 and ORC50) in the Med in the summer and in the Caribbeans in the winter, yes, some nights can be hot...
For the solar, the current plan is for 3x375W on the davits. We could install more on the bimini if needed. Battery bank is lithium 2x280Ah in 24V.
Fridge is 230ltrs and deep freezer is 130lts.
We have agreed for extra weight for a small washing machine (5kg) and reverse osmose (105 l/hr). We also enjoy scuba diving, so we are considering a small 6m3/hr air compressor and a few diving sets, that's under discussion with the builder. Finally, the dinghy will be 4m long x 1.8m wide, much larger than normal for this design, still at reasonable weight 170kg with 25hp outboard, fuel and small anchor/chain.
As for the performance, I will provide the sail plan and performance data in a future post.
I hope this answer your questions. Let me know if you would like further details!

Thanks so much for your response! It is good to have a frame of reference as to what goes into these boats (or doesn't lol) that make them perform so incredibly well. I wouldn't be worried about no A/C when out cruising, it is really only when you are in a marina for a more than a night or two that makes it somewhat of an issue.

Looking forward to your updates, going to be an amazing catamaran!

 

[Yves N.]

About the layout, we like the Catana style layouts with the large cockpit table on the side and the sliding bay window offside and a bench against the cockpit bulkhead. We have spent so much time on those benches and around that table... ORC57 offers a very large cockpit that allows this kind of setup. The outside table will seat ten guests comfortably...

About the bulkhead, we wanted to keep the opening not too wide with good sealing capability. We have seen a few times the cockpit of the Catana completely filled with sea water when a bad wave crashed on the boat side. We like sea water to stay in the sea and not inside the boat...! We are going for the closed bulkhead and single sliding bay, which we find a safer setup and likely lighter than the large sliding bay window.

The kitchen will be setup inside against the bulkhead, nothing fancy there, and this gives us plenty space for everything we need to install, fridge, deep freezer, oven cooking range, little washing machine and some storage! There is a window missing in the sketch below, it is added already. The helmsman can see through all the saloon windows.

 

[jmh2002]

...We have seen a few times the cockpit of the Catana completely filled with sea water when a bad wave crashed on the boat side. We like sea water to stay in the sea and not inside the boat...!

People think this can't happen on a catamaran, but of course it can, and sometimes it does. And if you are really unlucky after going into the salon it also runs down the steps into the hulls too...

It might be a nice idea to have slots / guides built into to each side of the sliding door frame so that a short 'wash board' can be fitted there (just like most monohulls have for their companionways) during rough conditions when you might want to keep the door open, but also want 'the sea water to stay in the sea!'

If it was done nicely by the factory you wouldn't even notice it. And when in use it can just be stepped over to go in and out of the cockpit (maybe maximum 30cm high)

Nicer still would would be to have a proper storage place for this wash board too, although this is less of a problem on your boat with the single / narrower sliding door because the washboard doesn't need to be very wide.

 

[mpenman]

About the bulkhead, we wanted to keep the opening not too wide with good sealing capability. We have seen a few times the cockpit of the Catana completely filled with sea water when a bad wave crashed on the boat side. We like sea water to stay in the sea and not inside the boat...! We are going for the closed bulkhead and single sliding bay, which we find a safer setup and likely lighter than the large sliding bay window.

Always nice to see someone who has sailed in less than ideal conditions. We have the same setup for the exact same reason.
Really looking forward to seeing your boat. Exciting stuff!!!

 

[ol70]

Can you share with us what Carbon Fiber options you selected over the standard boat's construction? On the builder's website there is a huge list of CF upgrades available over the base boat, and just curious how deep down the rabbit hole of weight savings you are going...we are at the point of having to make similar decisions on how much CF to add and where to add it.

Cheers!

 

[Yves N.]

Can you share with us what Carbon Fiber options you selected over the standard boat's construction? On the builder's website there is a huge list of CF upgrades available over the base boat, and just curious how deep down the rabbit hole of weight savings you are going...we are at the point of having to make similar decisions on how much CF to add and where to add it.

Cheers!

I don't have much experience with carbon fiber, but what I have witnessed is that it does not react well with some fittings, especially with aluminum and maybe with some specific stainless. On the ORC50 we chartered, the roof was made of carbon fiber and there were serious delamination issues around fittings bolted to that roof. I had the same issue on the Catana, where the clutches for the dinghy on the carbon fiber davits had completely eaten the pipe. Our choices were guided by these personnel experiences, by the cost vs weight gain, the location of the added carbon fiber and the added value for future boat resale.
1- Carbon mast: it is the most obvious from a resale perspective and from a location perspective. The gain is significant. We thought about this for long time. The opposite argument was that it is extremely costly (+/-$150k option) and it is also easy to replace if one day we sale the boat to someone who wants a carbon mast... But we thought for a boat like this the carbon mast is a must have from a commercial perspective (charter boat, possible racing, etc.). Note that we did not take the rotation option. We thought it added a lot of complexity to the boat rigging and electronic systems for gains that where nice for racing only basically... And the additional cost...
2- Carbon fiber bulkheads (mast and transom). These ones help for the boat rigidity. I had to do the reinforcement of the Catana mast bulkhead, it had collapsed completely, so I wanted something as strong as possible there. It is also a good resale investment, I think. And it can't be changed after construction.
3- Carbon fiber cross: this is now standard on these models.
4- Carbon fiber davits: original aluminum design is only rated 200kg and must support the solar array (+/-70kg), the dinghy 4m with motor 25hp, small mooring and 20ltrs gas tank... (+/-170kg): clearly not enough. We came to conclusion that for a larger boat, we need a larger davit. Design in progress, most likely a carbon fiber solution...

CF options we did not order:
1- We kept the aluminum boom; the weight gain is minimum, and it is placed relatively low and centered.
2- Same reason, the roof is standard, also because what I saw on the ORC50, I was concerned the added fittings, hatches, gib sheet haulers, etc. would be a problem medium term...
3- Carbon fiber daggerboard, weight gain is irrelevant, and it can be replaced if we have to one day.

That is all I can think about for now... I hope this helps

 

[ol70]

I don't have much experience with carbon fiber, but what I have witnessed is that it does not react well with some fittings, especially with aluminum and maybe with some specific stainless. On the ORC50 we chartered, the roof was made of carbon fiber and there were serious delamination issues around fittings bolted to that roof. I had the same issue on the Catana, where the clutches for the dinghy on the carbon fiber davits had completely eaten the pipe. Our choices were guided by these personnel experiences, by the cost vs weight gain, the location of the added carbon fiber and the added value for future boat resale.
1- Carbon mast: it is the most obvious from a resale perspective and from a location perspective. The gain is significant. We thought about this for long time. The opposite argument was that it is extremely costly (+/-$150k option) and it is also easy to replace if one day we sale the boat to someone who wants a carbon mast... But we thought for a boat like this the carbon mast is a must have from a commercial perspective (charter boat, possible racing, etc.). Note that we did not take the rotation option. We thought it added a lot of complexity to the boat rigging and electronic systems for gains that where nice for racing only basically... And the additional cost...
2- Carbon fiber bulkheads (mast and transom). These ones help for the boat rigidity. I had to do the reinforcement of the Catana mast bulkhead, it had collapsed completely, so I wanted something as strong as possible there. It is also a good resale investment, I think. And it can't be changed after construction.
3- Carbon fiber cross: this is now standard on these models.
4- Carbon fiber davits: original aluminum design is only rated 200kg and must support the solar array (+/-70kg), the dinghy 4m with motor 25hp, small mooring and 20ltrs gas tank... (+/-170kg): clearly not enough. We came to conclusion that for a larger boat, we need a larger davit. Design in progress, most likely a carbon fiber solution...

CF options we did not order:
1- We kept the aluminum boom; the weight gain is minimum, and it is placed relatively low and centered.
2- Same reason, the roof is standard, also because what I saw on the ORC50, I was concerned the added fittings, hatches, gib sheet haulers, etc. would be a problem medium term...
3- Carbon fiber daggerboard, weight gain is irrelevant, and it can be replaced if we have to one day.

That is all I can think about for now... I hope this helps

Thanks so much for the detailed response! It is easy to over think things in this area, but you only get to build it once at this stage. Right now, I'm going with carbon dagger boards/cases as well as rudder/quadrants. Bulkheads are all CF reinforced already, as well as the davits.

Ironically, I'm debating the carbon mast but need to do more research & deliberation, as I've been told that getting insurance can be extremely challenging for marginal gain...and we aren't going to be racing, nor will we have near the performance capabilities of the ORC57.

 

[mpenman]

I don't have much experience with carbon fiber, but what I have witnessed is that it does not react well with some fittings, especially with aluminum and maybe with some specific stainless. On the ORC50 we chartered, the roof was made of carbon fiber and there were serious delamination issues around fittings bolted to that roof. I had the same issue on the Catana, where the clutches for the dinghy on the carbon fiber davits had completely eaten the pipe.

As an FYI that's an install problem. Carbon is conductive. Anything bolted to it like aluminum, stainless or fittings should be mounted on a G10 insert or glued to the carbon, like a mahogany.
If that stuff is happening it's a manufacturing problem, not a carbon one.

If those buggers are playing with that stuff, they should know this intrinsically.

 

[jmh2002]

As an FYI that's an install problem. Carbon is conductive. Anything bolted to it like aluminum, stainless or fittings should be mounted on a G10 insert or glued to the carbon, like a mahogany.
If that stuff is happening it's a manufacturing problem, not a carbon one.

If those buggers are playing with that stuff, they should know this intrinsically.

And not much different to 'the old days' when similar problems with stainless and aluminium resulted from an install problem too - backing plates for winches, deck fittings, etc, as well as all the stainless vs aluminium on the mast.

We all became adept at using the various solutions of duralac, silicone, and other isolating materials. When the use of webbing and spectra strops became common this helped in some cases too.

But of course if possible, it was, and still is, better to avoid mixing incompatible materials in the first place.

 

[Yves N.]

About the sail plan, here is what the yard proposes.

For the headsails, we will start with the "small" gennaker, (150m2) and will see if we take the "large" one (200m2) later. The yard will add all the fittings needed on the mast to be ready for the large gennaker. The large gennaker though maybe needed at the end, it covers a very large portion of the VPP table, from 60 deg x 4 knots down to 180 deg x 20 knots... Not sure we can completely avoid it... The spinnaker covers a small area of the VPP table, from 150 deg x 4 knots down to 180 deg 14 knots. To make it simple, we will forget that one for now! We can revisit if there is strong specific demand, for some racing obviously, or other! That would be a good problem to have...!

 

[Mambo Kings]

Can you share with us what Carbon Fiber options you selected over the standard boat's construction? On the builder's website there is a huge list of CF upgrades available over the base boat, and just curious how deep down the rabbit hole of weight savings you are going...we are at the point of having to make similar decisions on how much CF to add and where to add it.

Cheers!

Hello @ol70 ,

I think you already mentioned this earlier and I have forgotten. What is the boat you are having built?

 

[Mambo Kings]

Thanks so much for the detailed response! It is easy to over think things in this area, but you only get to build it once at this stage. Right now, I'm going with carbon dagger boards/cases as well as rudder/quadrants. Bulkheads are all CF reinforced already, as well as the davits.

Bulkheads are a good choice. Lot of torque on a cat

I like the idea of carbon davits and keeping weight out of the ends of the boat ....but the carbon upgrades and retrofits I have looked at are fierce expensive for the kgs saved. I dont know why. I think it is because the carbon davit manufacturers have gone for exotic shapes vs something simple. If anyone knows somebody making simple, cost effective carbon dinghy davits...please share. I got quoted $35,000 for davits to carry an OC 330. You can save a lot more weight for less dollars by going for a ULW carbon dinghy/tender + you end up with a very sexy tender when you pull up to the dock at St Barts. Im going carbon dinghy, aluminum davits.

Carbon rudders would definitely be nice. My daggerboards will likely be glass because they are the sacrifice component on the boat.
I hope I dont go aground or hit something....but......who here has never bumped something?

Ironically, I'm debating the carbon mast but need to do more research & deliberation, as I've been told that getting insurance can be extremely challenging for marginal gain...and we aren't going to be racing, nor will we have near the performance capabilities of the ORC57.

I will be sailing with a carbon mast. The impact and leverage of reducing weight aloft out performs anything you do with weight at the deck level.

Besides that I just like carbon as a material for masts. I have been sailing with carbon masts on every boat I have owned since 2006. I like the strength and bend characteristics. I like the way they work organically with the sails. Even the stiffest carbon mast works with its sails and can be tuned to the sails. Same with wood masts. Aluminum masts are either flexible to work with the sails and easy to break, or unbreakable and like attaching sails to a lamp post. This is a personal preference. On a more objective note, carbon masts are lighter and easier to pop out of the boat at more yards if you need to repaint or add fittings. Because I am used to them, I find it easier to seal the fittings and maintain/protect the mast.

Nothing against aluminum. The other question is how it affects your resale market.

 

[jmh2002]

If anyone knows somebody making simple, cost effective carbon dinghy davits...please share.

Here is one well established company that makes off the shelf models:

Davit Systems | Atlas Carbon Fibre Davits

Atlas davit systems have been designed to make light work of a variety of marine lifting tasks, with a safe working load of up to 500kg...

www.atlascarbonproducts.com

Twin Boat Davits | Atlas Carbon Fibre Davits

Our twin boat davits have been developed to suit the transoms of sailing vessels, bringing the elegant lines of the Atlas davit range to the yachting world.

www.atlascarbonproducts.com

Here is one example, but they have various different models available. They can be removable too, ie: for racing, since they are mounted in sockets.

 

[ol70]

Hello @ol70 ,

I think you already mentioned this earlier and I have forgotten. What is the boat you are having built?

Hi Mambo Kings, yes I mentioned in another thread that we are building a Balance 526 MkII with the Nexus yard in St. Francis, SA. The only dilemma (like with all custom boats) is where to draw the line. The boat comes standard with a ton of carbon elements, and you can add as much as you like to have a complete carbon boat. We will end up in between somewhere probably about 11.9T fully kitted and ready for cruising.