ORC57 #3 construction started...!

[Mambo Kings]

Hi Mambo Kings, yes I mentioned in another thread that we are building a Balance 526 MkII with the Nexus yard in St. Francis, SA. The only dilemma (like with all custom boats) is where to draw the line. The boat comes standard with a ton of carbon elements, and you can add as much as you like to have a complete carbon boat. We will end up in between somewhere probably about 11.9T fully kitted and ready for cruising.

Of course, yes, how could I forget.

You saw that the 526 was faster than the O51 on almost all points of sail in the Cape-to-Rio. I think that puts the debate about the aframee mainsheet system to bed, don't you? Both great boats but the 526 is a fast boat.

I dislike spending other people's money....but if I may. You should get the carbon mast for that boat. I think it will be important for the resale value.

 

[ol70]

Of course, yes, how could I forget.

You saw that the 526 was faster than the O51 on almost all points of sail in the Cape-to-Rio. I think that puts the debate about the aframee mainsheet system to bed, don't you? Both great boats but the 526 is a fast boat.

I dislike spending other people's money....but if I may. You should get the carbon mast for that boat. I think it will be important for the resale value.

lol, yes I’m good at that too! I know, I’ll most likely bite the bullet and end up with a carbon mast and composite rigging.

The wife and I are hopping on a flight to Düsseldorf from the states as I type this to go have some good beer and attend the Boot show to check out some gear we are considering for the build. Really want to hear about Zero Jet tender now in a Highfield. Then deciding between B&G vs Raymarine…but mostly it’s just fun to go look at boats and escape the snow here. I’ll catch up more when we return.

Cheers!

 

[Mambo Kings]

lol, yes I’m good at that too! I know, I’ll most likely bite the bullet and end up with a carbon mast and composite rigging.

The wife and I are hopping on a flight to Düsseldorf from the states as I type this to go have some good beer and attend the Boot show to check out some gear we are considering for the build. Really want to hear about Zero Jet tender now in a Highfield. Then deciding between B&G vs Raymarine…but mostly it’s just fun to go look at boats and escape the snow here. I’ll catch up more when we return.

Cheers!

Dang. Good idea. I would be up for that.

One caveat. Dusseldorf is not exactly warm at this time of year.

However I think Dusseldorf has become the de facto boat show for this kind of stuff. Probably because the Germans are the only Europeans who can afford it.

B&G.
Ooops there I go again, spending OPM.

Sorry for the brief intermission. Back to ORC

 

[Yves N.]

About the electronic pack, we are no experts and we will go with the yard standard package and proposed redundancies:
- NKE pilots x2
- NKE displays at the chart table and on the cockpit bulkhead x2
- NKE pads at the helms + remote control
- B&G plotters (chart table 12", 2x helms 9")
- B&G radar
- Raymarine linear mechanical drives x2

It is all reliable equipment, it is a very expensive ticket though!

Also plan for a simple laptop with routing software. I had the TimeZero software on the Catana, so plan to keep that one in use...!

Not planning to invest in the "Up-Side-Up" system (automatic release of the sheets in case of large acceleration, excessive heeling, etc.), as I was not convinced of its reliability in time on the ORC50. It looks good in principle, but adjustments are very sensitive, and we found that the system was either too conservative (that is ok) or not enough (that is not ok). When not closely focus on the watch, better to reduce the sail plan instead of relying on something not extremely reliable.

 

[jmh2002]

One comment I would make about the "Up-Side-Up" system is that it may still be useful for unexpected events.

I am talking about a situation where you may already have a conservative sailplan set but the wind speed increases enormously out of nowhere - some type of 'micro burst'.

These events have happened to various boats, one being the capsize of the Atlantic 57 catamaran 'Leopard' which you can read about here:

Chris White Designs Atlantic 57 Leopard capsize

Atlantic 57 Leopard capsize was most likely caused by a waterspout.

www.chriswhitedesigns.com

They were sailing in 25kn +/- of wind, 2 reefs, partially rolled self tacking jib, 7kn boatspeed - so sailing conservatively - but still capsized.

In that case the conclusion seems to be that it was just bad luck instead of any particular fault by the crew.

So maybe for cruising the "Up-Side-Up" system shouldn't be looked at as a 'performance feature' to keep more sail up when actually you should have already reefed, but more as a total last resort in an emergency?

At least it is some more information to consider.

 

[mpenman]

We went all NKE on our boat. Really like their pilot too, but ours is hydraulic with a L&S ram.
Garmin chartplotters as they were integrated with the volvo engines, but I would most probably switch out for Raymarine in the future. Frankly, using a ipad or samsung tablet has become defacto in areas where the charts are on c-map, Aqua Map, etc. etc.

I have the upside up on the main only for the very reason that @jmh2002 states. It's as an oh shit panic button, not something to rely on to save your bacon. I'd rather it blow and have to reset than not having it at all.

 

[jmh2002]

@mpenman I have a question regarding NKE, since my experience with them is now dated, and in the past it connected to a full race program with the appropriate support.

NKE always used to be more French centric, and although that is less of an issue for me since I'm connected to the French world and speak some French, but I was wondering, for a cruising boat, how are you finding the situation when you are away from Europe and France, and even the USA?

Or have you simply not had an issues that require support down in the Caribbean?

And what about when jumping off towards the Pacific?

Since you went all in NKE on your boat you must have a high level of confidence?

Are you also all setup for remote support via the internet? Have you used this to troubleshoot anything significant?

 

[mpenman]

@mpenman I have a question regarding NKE, since my experience with them is now dated, and in the past it connected to a full race program with the appropriate support.

NKE always used to be more French centric, and although that is less of an issue for me since I'm connected to the French world and speak some French, but I was wondering, for a cruising boat, how are you finding the situation when you are away from Europe and France, and even the USA?

Definitely French but always available for any questions or support issues and they have been very easy to deal with and always responsive on questions, which have been more about settings than anything else. Ian Clarke did our electrical setup and layout on the pShip and he's an NKE dealer in Bristol. He's incredibly talented and knowledgeable.

I like the French stuff because I consider their sailors some of the best offshore people in the business. But my family loves Pip and are diehard fans of hers.

Or have you simply not had an issues that require support down in the Caribbean?

And what about when jumping off towards the Pacific?

Currently sitting in Bocas Del Toro for a canal passage mid march and Marquesas thereafter. I've had an issue with a hydraulic pump, but has been sorted and sent to me already.
Too busy surfing to focus on much else

Since you went all in NKE on your boat you must have a high level of confidence?

Are you also all setup for remote support via the internet? Have you used this to troubleshoot anything significant?

Yes I am. Both Bill at ACC and Ian at Clarke Marine are available at anytime to help with issues and troubleshooting. I also know most of the boat, so basically it has to be a real weird thing for us to need assistance. Mainly it's parts and wear.

As for NKE, the pilot when the boat is at speed (15+knots) is very, very good. The settings and adjustments are excellent. Many of my previous pilots struggled somewhat with winds in the 120-140 TWA range, but this boat turns that into 80-100 AWA and goes like a gazelle. AP so far has been stellar.

 

[jmh2002]

@mpenman thanks for your thoughts

 

[Yves N.]

Marc Lombard Yacht Design (MLYD) is the architect for the ORC57. This is the first time Marsaudon Composites and MLYD work together on the ORC range. The previous ORC42 and ORC50 were designed by Christophe Barreau.

Christophe Barreau (CB) has produced two very successful ranges of catamaran designs so far. In the late 1990's and early 2000's, CB was the main architect for Catana yard. These were real commercial successes, the C47 being a best seller and still very active on the secondhand market. I owned the C401 prototype for three years and it was a great boat, quite veloce and comfortable, the quality of construction was questionable though. CB also worked with Outremer for production boats that followed the one of original owner/architect Gerard Danson in the 2010's. This was and is still an outstanding success, the O45 is the most famous model after Railey and Elayna made it so popular on YT. One note however, that the latest Outremer models O55 and O52 are designed by another architect (VPLP). Lately, one of the new players on the performance/comfort Catamaran market, Windelo (led by former founder of Catana), has hired CB to design the range. Windelo innovates in many ways and maybe at the beginning of another successful story. I loved the C401 and the ORC50 designed by CB. Therefore, I had to consider the Windelo for my project. Though the design and construction propose something focused on innovations, I am not a big fan of the large roof (aesthetic) and the forward and aft cockpits (too exposed).

MLYD office has very diversified experience in sailboat design for the last 40 years. On the web site, it records 8500 boats built, 250 boat designed and 50 podium in various races. The office includes several architects and engineers, all coming from reputable universities in England and France. The racing boat portfolio includes several class 40ft and 6.50m designs, the Figaro 2, Imocas 60ft and Orma 60ft. MLYD worked successfully with major production yards (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Alubat, RM, Futuna, CDK, Neel, Privilege, Nautitech,...). The ORC57 is the first participation from MLYD on high-performance-high-specification racer-cruiser catamaran.

Both Outremer and Marsaudon Composites have decided to work with new architect offices for the development of their flag ship models. It looks like the yards have less appetite for standalone genius and more appetite for established-reputable-capable architect offices. A one stop-shop for the boat design, fully integrated, having significantly more in house support and capable to provide quick responses. It seems the yards expected something more from CB, that he was not ready to provide... We will never know what could have been the ORC57, the O52 or O55 if they had been designed by CB...!

 

[Yves N.]

We have spent a number of hours with various friends and with the yard experts discussing the sail arrangements. Marc Lombard Yacht Design original proposed inventory is as follows:

Not listed here is also the J3, 29 sqm.

The table below is showing the boat speed as a function of the wind, the wind angle and the sail area... Originally, we were not planning to have the 200sqm gennaker, we thought this would be too much sail to handle. But the yard asked us to look at the chart below. We can see that the range of the 200sqm gennaker is very large and may likely be a common sail in use for light winds. The range for its use is very large... So, after some more thoughts, we could not really do without. Still looks like a lot of sail, let's hope the hook never fail on that one ...

We have not ordered the 350 sqm spinnaker... we will see later if we must add it. with five forward sails available, we will be fine to start our first-year sailing!

One last comment on the above drawing from Marc Lombard Yacht Design, it says to reduce boat speed by 15% when having the aluminum mast...! The carbon mast is an investment, but there are a few good reasons to add it on this "marecraft" (it is like "spacecraft" but for the sea)!

 

[bushsailor]

A couple of points which may or may not help.

• I am a big fan of Garmin chartplotters(and we have had Raymarine and B&G on board at the same time but the Garmin is easier to read and use.
• A 150m2 code 0 is the go to sail for cruising. Faster when under 5kn TWS and less scary over 15kn.
• A carbon mast should be stiffer and stronger than aluminum. Go for strength. Weight aloft is not an issue as it is not a mono.
• Get some good halyard locks that are permanently released and need a line pulled to engage. This needs to be incorporated into the mast and mast track with a titanium insert where the lock goes. Use reef hooks. they are fiddly but you are not breaking reef lines all the time.
• If you get a kite get a light one. Much easier to handle around the boat. Pull it down when wind gets over say 12kn.

 

[svendson]

My racing experience is limited to smaller trailerable multis, cruising includes on large cat and a few smaller tris, so take this for whatever it isn't worth.

My main comment is that looking at the area a sail covers on the sail chart like in your table alone does not communicate the whole picture. It is also important to look at vmg at different points of sail and the relative performance differences between the sails, to see if you have major performance holes.

For example, that big 350m2 spi may not cover much area on the chart, but it does cover your very light downwind vmg, an area that multis tend to do quite poorly in due to high wetted surface to displacement ratios. I'm too lazy to do the math off that chart, but if the spi gives you an extra knot vmg that is going to be some 25% improvement downwind in under 10kn true. Cruising you can just deal with the lack of performance or motor. Our cat had outboards on sleds so motoring sucked, especially in any kind of residual sea state, and we were many times very happy to have the massive drifter of a spinnaker. Racing this is a critical weakness, to the point that I would be livid if I could afford a racing charter of your boat only to be spanked across the line by monos 5 to 10ft shorter.

Upwind, same thing with respect to a J0/screacher/code 50 type sail. The daggerboards need some speed through the water to generate adequate lift and getting over that threshold in light wind is crucial to upwind vmg. Cruising you definitely motor a good deal more without this sail. Racing it is again a crucial hole in the sail wardrobe that is hard to defend to a knowledgeable customer. For me personally, this sail is where doing 6 to 8kn on a reach in 5 to 6kn true on a nice smooth sea is where the cruising magic of a high performance multi lies, so I second bushsailor on a big furling sail that is flatter cut than a gennaker.

The initial sail wardrobe looks good, just wanted to get you looking at it from another perspective. Versatility as represented by the area a sail covers on the crossover chart is not the only, or possibly even primary, metric of a sails' value to you.

Something definitely worth discussing with your sailmaker is what angles and wind speeds lend themselves to flying multiple headsails. Won't cover the light wind vmg holes up and down, but may make them smaller and will certainly add another gear in certain reaching conditions.

 

[CapDave]

We just completed a 1,245 mile downwind trip on our Atlantic 57. We had our 200 sq. Meter A2 up for about 30 hours, and in retrospect we could have flown it more. We fly it with halyard locks, a Karver on one side and a Facnor on the other. We have not yet tried to gybe it flying.

It’s not just a light wind sail. We were carrying it at 160 TWA with TWS in the low 20’s, and AWS stayed in the 9-14 range with AWA in the 110-135 range. We saw some gusts to 28 TWS but still never saw AWS go over 17, with AWA surging to 100. We were surfing at 17 knots in those gusts.

So far we have found the biggest challenge with this sail is sea state. Downwind, once the waves start throwing the stern around the quick heading change tends to collapse the luff, and at higher wind speeds it’s not entertaining.

But it’s an awesome sail - don’t leave the dock without it!

 

[CapDave]

My racing experience is limited to smaller trailerable multis, cruising includes on large cat and a few smaller tris, so take this for whatever it isn't worth.

My main comment is that looking at the area a sail covers on the sail chart like in your table alone does not communicate the whole picture. It is also important to look at vmg at different points of sail and the relative performance differences between the sails, to see if you have major performance holes.

For example, that big 350m2 spi may not cover much area on the chart, but it does cover your very light downwind vmg, an area that multis tend to do quite poorly in due to high wetted surface to displacement ratios. I'm too lazy to do the math off that chart, but if the spi gives you an extra knot vmg that is going to be some 25% improvement downwind in under 10kn true. Cruising you can just deal with the lack of performance or motor. Our cat had outboards on sleds so motoring sucked, especially in any kind of residual sea state, and we were many times very happy to have the massive drifter of a spinnaker. Racing this is a critical weakness, to the point that I would be livid if I could afford a racing charter of your boat only to be spanked across the line by monos 5 to 10ft shorter.

Upwind, same thing with respect to a J0/screacher/code 50 type sail. The daggerboards need some speed through the water to generate adequate lift and getting over that threshold in light wind is crucial to upwind vmg. Cruising you definitely motor a good deal more without this sail. Racing it is again a crucial hole in the sail wardrobe that is hard to defend to a knowledgeable customer. For me personally, this sail is where doing 6 to 8kn on a reach in 5 to 6kn true on a nice smooth sea is where the cruising magic of a high performance multi lies, so I second bushsailor on a big furling sail that is flatter cut than a gennaker.

The initial sail wardrobe looks good, just wanted to get you looking at it from another perspective. Versatility as represented by the area a sail covers on the crossover chart is not the only, or possibly even primary, metric of a sails' value to you.

Something definitely worth discussing with your sailmaker is what angles and wind speeds lend themselves to flying multiple headsails. Won't cover the light wind vmg holes up and down, but may make them smaller and will certainly add another gear in certain reaching conditions.

I appreciate this perspective. For us, sailing mostly double handed, we’re just not going to carry that 350m2 sail - we won’t use it often enough to justify it. Yes we’ll lose the race, but if it’s that light we gybe downwind with the 200m2 A2 and that works pretty well actually; I’m not sure how much VMG we’re really giving up.

What we are missing is the Code sail on the furler. I’ve actually written to CW today to ask him his thoughts on putting an A72 style sprit on our A57.

That said, I don’t think you can really go very far upwind with a Code sail on this boat. Even with our 70m2 genoa in 7-8 knots TWS we pull the apparent wind so far forward that we’re sailing at TWA ~70 close hauled. We’re doing about 6-7 knots there, and the dagger is working. I want the Code sail at maybe 130-150m2 for wider angles, and then the dagger has less impact if any.

We have found in winds over 12 knots that the dagger only matters with AWA closer than 60.

 

[ProaSailor]

View attachment 577210
View attachment 577209

Just to state the obvious... The blue 150 sq. M sail has the narrowest range on that table. Maybe it's the one to eliminate?

 

[F18 Sailor]

Just to state the obvious... The blue 150 sq. M sail has the narrowest range on that table. Maybe it's the one to eliminate?

I think that’s the code zero. They typically have a narrow range but fill a pretty important reaching angle. At least locally we tend to spend a fair bit of time tight reaching while racing in lighter conditions, and despite having a massive overlapping J1, still need the code to fill the gap between it and the A3. If the OP intends to do a RORC 600 or the Mediterranean 600, it’s a sail you need.

 

[F18 Sailor]

We just completed a 1,245 mile downwind trip on our Atlantic 57. We had our 200 sq. Meter A2 up for about 30 hours, and in retrospect we could have flown it more. We fly it with halyard locks, a Karver on one side and a Facnor on the other. We have not yet tried to gybe it flying.

It’s not just a light wind sail. We were carrying it at 160 TWA with TWS in the low 20’s, and AWS stayed in the 9-14 range with AWA in the 110-135 range. We saw some gusts to 28 TWS but still never saw AWS go over 17, with AWA surging to 100. We were surfing at 17 knots in those gusts.

So far we have found the biggest challenge with this sail is sea state. Downwind, once the waves start throwing the stern around the quick heading change tends to collapse the luff, and at higher wind speeds it’s not entertaining.

But it’s an awesome sail - don’t leave the dock without it!

Different boat, performance monohull, but we find the same thing at sea with the A2. Inshore it’s good to about 23kts TWS. Offshore, more like 17-18kts. That’s where an A2.5 is nice to have; it’s a little smaller than the A2, but more importantly a lot flatter (more A3 in shape), and the luff is much more stable. You can still collapse it if you take a big quartering wave that overrides the rudder, but if you do it’s easier to get back flying and there is much less chance of blowing it up in a round up. Maybe something to talk to the sailmakers about down the road!

 

[Wess]

We have spent a number of hours with various friends and with the yard experts discussing the sail arrangements. Marc Lombard Yacht Design original proposed inventory is as follows:
View attachment 577210 Not listed here is also the J3, 29 sqm.

The table below is showing the boat speed as a function of the wind, the wind angle and the sail area... Originally, we were not planning to have the 200sqm gennaker, we thought this would be too much sail to handle. But the yard asked us to look at the chart below. We can see that the range of the 200sqm gennaker is very large and may likely be a common sail in use for light winds. The range for its use is very large... So, after some more thoughts, we could not really do without. Still looks like a lot of sail, let's hope the hook never fail on that one ...

View attachment 577209

We have not ordered the 350 sqm spinnaker... we will see later if we must add it. with five forward sails available, we will be fine to start our first-year sailing!

View attachment 577211

One last comment on the above drawing from Marc Lombard Yacht Design, it says to reduce boat speed by 15% when having the aluminum mast...! The carbon mast is an investment, but there are a few good reasons to add it on this "marecraft" (it is like "spacecraft" but for the sea)!

Echoing what others have said... get the spi. That is not the sail to drop. Downwind, deep in light is the weakest point of most any multi and given that gentlemen (cruisers) don't go to windward a point of sail you might often find yourself on. So...

Unless you like motoring, get the spi!

 

[mpenman]

I think that the biggest benefit of locks is reduction of chafe. @bushsailor notes, it should be open and triggered to close.

I would not get hooks for the leech of the sail. I have blocks around the end of my boom to a clutch. Always works, never gets hung up. The hooks are finnicky, not the crap you want to deal with when offshore at night with winds doing exactly what they're not supposed to do. YMMV.

I have a 350sq/m asym and it works in most worlds except with confused sea state. As @CapDave notes, it collapses more than I would like.

The 72 sprit has a hydraulic ram to tension the outter forestay. I like it a lot. That being said I have yet to fly anything from the sprit. Just use the blocks on the bows to tack the sail.