Organizing Sailing as Gouvernail Sees It.

[dogwatch]

So beyond an alternative to US Sailing, why not restructure the sport more in alignment with class associations, rather than countries?

Classes come and go, countries mostly don't. Freezing the currently successful classes into the overall structure of sailing would be a big mistake.

 

[knh555]

Excellent points Gouvernail (Fred?). I would add that World Sailing appears to be even more focused on Olympics (and the funds the IOC pays them for running the Olympic events) than US Sailing is. I have not been actively involved with either organization in some time (and I question whether sailing be part of the Olympic/IOC circus actually benefits the average sailboat racer).

On the other hand, I am a strong and active supporter (and past officer) of my class association. Further, I suggest that I have more in common with other sailors in the same class, than I do with a nearby sailor in a different class.

So beyond an alternative to US Sailing, why not restructure the sport more in alignment with class associations, rather than countries?

As one example, Star class districts cross international boundaries and there are no national championships. Blue, silver, and gold star events work just fine for the class. Organizing by country is an artifact of Olympic sailing and not how sailors see themselves as evidenced by the multinational crews at all levels.

 

[Pollination]

Oh Yeah, In this sport, the Boardroom is well offshore. So if you have not been there, go back to your hotel room and pack you bags.

 

[[email protected]]

I dont understand the relevance of the question-- "does sailing being in the olympics benefit the average sailors?". The question itself is pretty goddamn selfish, if you ask me.

Perhaps it does benefit some sailors (who sail in olympic classes) and doesnt others? Does basketball in the olympics benefit the guys shooting in the park? How about cross county skiing and shooting (biathalon) does that benefit those that nordic ski and target shoot in their backyards? It probably does as far as equipment development, and exposure for the sport to attract newbies, but really it's an irrelevant, stupid, selfish and UNPATRIOTIC question.

 

[knh555]

I dont understand the relevance of the question-- "does sailing being in the olympics benefit the average sailors?". The question itself is pretty goddamn selfish, if you ask me.

Perhaps it does benefit some sailors (who sail in olympic classes) and doesnt others? Does basketball in the olympics benefit the guys shooting in the park? How about cross county skiing and shooting (biathalon) does that benefit those that nordic ski and target shoot in their backyards? It probably does as far as equipment development, and exposure for the sport to attract newbies, but really it's an irrelevant, stupid, selfish and UNPATRIOTIC question.

Maybe the right question to ask is, "does the average sailor feel some connection with sailing being in the olympics? And what is USS doing to nurture that sense of community connecting sailors up and down the spectrum? Is what they do enough?"

The negative sentiment towards elite sailing is likely amplified by a governing body that fails to deliver perceived value to the broader membership, creating an us/them dynamic. Perhaps if USS delivered value more broadly, that same membership would offer more rhetorical and direct support for the Olympics.

And plenty of people reject rooting for a given sports team as a test of patriotism, which is something much deeper than fandom. Calling people who don't care for the Olympics UNPATRIOTIC is a bit over the top. I'm of the opinion that patriotism doesn't require support for elite sporting events to enrich a corrupt IOC. I doubt I'm alone.

 

[Xeon]

My view of patriotism can be summed up by two famous quotes ;

1) Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

2) Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

 

[dogwatch]

Maybe the right question to ask is, "does the average sailor feel some connection with sailing being in the olympics?"

As far as GBR goes, the answer is yes. Plenty show up at our clubhouse at some strange hour to cheer on Olympic sailing in a like-minded group. Without presuming to speak for others, I'd say for me, this is not part of some general British flag-waving patriotism, as unfortunately I tend to find that card most played by political scoundrels. It is about identification specifically with the British sailing community, which I have found, for the most part, populated by people I like.

 

[Dillon Waltner]

As far as GBR goes, the answer is yes. Plenty show up at our clubhouse at some strange hour to cheer on Olympic sailing in a like-minded group. Without presuming to speak for others, I'd say for me, this is not part of some general British flag-waving patriotism, as unfortunately I tend to find that card most played by political scoundrels. It is about identification specifically with the British sailing community, which I have found, for the most part, populated by people I like.

You may be onto something there. I think (perhaps from my own anecdotal experience, admittedly) that a sense of camaraderie amongst American sailors is missing. The taste I get from it is more one of factionalism and in-group vs out-group dynamics between sailors (e.g. monohulls vs multihulls, racers vs rec sailors, etc.). I think even when it comes to large personalities in the American sailing community (think Paul Cayard, or going back a ways, Dennis Conner) it becomes more of a love/hate thing than a USA thing. Bringing patriotism into the mix just makes me taste stomach acid.

 

[knh555]

You may be onto something there. I think (perhaps from my own anecdotal experience, admittedly) that a sense of camaraderie amongst American sailors is missing. The taste I get from it is more one of factionalism and in-group vs out-group dynamics between sailors (e.g. monohulls vs multihulls, racers vs rec sailors, etc.). I think even when it comes to large personalities in the American sailing community (think Paul Cayard, or going back a ways, Dennis Conner) it becomes more of a love/hate thing than a USA thing. Bringing patriotism into the mix just makes me taste stomach acid.

I've experienced much camaraderie in sailing and it's one of the things that keeps me coming back, but that's been mostly within fleets, clubs, and classes. I also see a lot of people pissing on each other here at SA with attitudes that make it clear to me why a new sailor who happens to come across that sort of attitude before meeting the good folks might leave the sport or at least not engage with the fleets that we so desperately want to grow. It has nothing to do with sailing skill or accomplishment. Is this b/c we're on the internet or does this reflect the sailboat racing community?

 

[Dillon Waltner]

I've experienced much camaraderie in sailing and it's one of the things that keeps me coming back, but that's been mostly within fleets, clubs, and classes. I also see a lot of people pissing on each other here at SA with attitudes that make it clear to me why a new sailor who happens to come across that sort of attitude before meeting the good folks might leave the sport or at least not engage with the fleets that we so desperately want to grow. It has nothing to do with sailing skill or accomplishment. Is this b/c we're on the internet or does this reflect the sailboat racing community?

I think it's a bit of both. The internet certainly shines a light on it, but I've felt the same tension since I started racing in the 80s. I've experienced a lot of camaraderie along the way too, but a lot of it has been built around being in the in-group (fleet, class association e.g.).

 

[dogwatch]

I also see a lot of people pissing on each other here at SA with attitudes that make it clear to me why a new sailor who happens to come across that sort of attitude before meeting the good folks might leave the sport or at least not engage with the fleets that we so desperately want to grow. It has nothing to do with sailing skill or accomplishment. Is this b/c we're on the internet or does this reflect the sailboat racing community?

It doesn't reflect the sailboat racing community as I've encountered it GBR, IRL or FRA. To a large extent it reflect discussion on the internet in general and to some extent, I'm afraid, it is an SA village culture. It is all too easy to get drawn into that and start reflecting it back. That SA culture is, I believe, slowly getting better, outside PA anyhow. If as someone new to SA you think it can get unpleasant, you would not have liked SAAC a few years back. That is relatively civilised now. I don't think there is too much wrong if when someone says something wrong or foolish, it is pointed out to them. Personal abuse is something else.

My hint and tip to you is to make good use of ignore. Some people, you avoid standing next to in a bar. Some people are best put on ignore.

 

[knh555]

It doesn't reflect the sailboat racing community as I've encountered it GBR, IRL or FRA. To a large extent it reflect discussion on the internet in general and to some extent, I'm afraid, it is an SA village culture. It is all too easy to get drawn into that and start reflecting it back. That SA culture is, I believe, slowly getting better, outside PA anyhow. If as someone new to SA you think it can get unpleasant, you would not have liked SAAC a few years back. That is relatively civilised now. I don't think there is too much wrong if when someone says something wrong or foolish, it is pointed out to them. Personal abuse is something else.

My hint and tip to you is to make good use of ignore. Some people, you avoid standing next to in a bar. Some people are best put on ignore.

Good to hear, and yes, I've already started building my ignore list.

 

[knh555]

It doesn't reflect the sailboat racing community as I've encountered it GBR, IRL or FRA. To a large extent it reflect discussion on the internet in general and to some extent, I'm afraid, it is an SA village culture. It is all too easy to get drawn into that and start reflecting it back. That SA culture is, I believe, slowly getting better, outside PA anyhow. If as someone new to SA you think it can get unpleasant, you would not have liked SAAC a few years back. That is relatively civilised now. I don't think there is too much wrong if when someone says something wrong or foolish, it is pointed out to them. Personal abuse is something else.

My hint and tip to you is to make good use of ignore. Some people, you avoid standing next to in a bar. Some people are best put on ignore.

Silly me to think people here would put the Sailing ahead of the Anarchy. ;-)

 

[knh555]

My view of patriotism can be summed up by two famous quotes ;

1) Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

2) Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Patriotism as love of country can be a wonderful thing. Don't let the scoundrels co-opt it. That's why I pushed back on the post above. He doesn't get to own that term with that attitude.

 

[Xeon]

Patriotism as love of country can be a wonderful thing. Don't let the scoundrels co-opt it. That's why I pushed back on the post above. He doesn't get to own that term with that attitude.

Totally agree. Nothing the matter with loving your country. It’s when that love blinds someone to their countries faults and becomes ‘ my country right or wrong ‘ that the trouble starts . 😀

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

I dont understand the relevance of the question-- "does sailing being in the olympics benefit the average sailors?". The question itself is pretty goddamn selfish, if you ask me.

Perhaps it does benefit some sailors (who sail in olympic classes) and doesnt others? Does basketball in the olympics benefit the guys shooting in the park? How about cross county skiing and shooting (biathalon) does that benefit those that nordic ski and target shoot in their backyards? It probably does as far as equipment development, and exposure for the sport to attract newbies, but really it's an irrelevant, stupid, selfish and UNPATRIOTIC question.

Unpatriotic? Lighten up Mr. Nationalist.

Most people do not care about the Olympics which is ridden with scandal, graft, fraud, waste, and often results in direct harm to the more vulnerable citizens of the host city. This is before getting into the long term damage done to the host city's finances and local environment and that it takes money away from the needs of the citizens.

In a better world several cities would be chosen as alternating long term hosts for the Olympics so that the waste and damage stops. Worst case, which would not be the worst thing to happen, would be to cancel the Olympics entirely.

 

[[email protected]]

Oh ok, cancel the olympics. 3 billion people watched the last olympics, but "most people do not care about [them]" so cancel them.

I suspect you have an inferiority complex about the olympics because you havent the talent to remotely approach qualification, but who knows. perhaps your ex banged some track geek or something?

 

[Xeon]

When the UK had the Olympics in 2012 ,I never met anyone, before , during and after that were against it . For once in my lifetime ( 60 years ) it felt like the majority of the whole country were behind the project.

 

[knh555]

Oh ok, cancel the olympics. 3 billion people watched the last olympics, but "most people do not care about [them]" so cancel them.

I suspect you have an inferiority complex about the olympics because you havent the talent to remotely approach qualification, but who knows. perhaps your ex banged some track geek or something?

Or people could simply stop accusing those with little interest in the Olympics as being unpatriotic and let this die down.

 

[Gouvernail]

Oh ok, cancel the olympics. 3 billion people watched the last olympics, but "most people do not care about [them]" so cancel them.

I suspect you have an inferiority complex about the olympics because you havent the talent to remotely approach qualification, but who knows. perhaps your ex banged some track geek or something?

The Olympics is primarily a for profit enterprise. The owners have BRILLIANTLY sold many people on the idea their should be games okayed to profit the owners and …. Oh yeah… give nations an opportunity to compete in games rather than wars.

Quite wonderfully, the athletes who get to qualify and compete enjoy a very special lifetime experience.

Having said that:

USSailing should be entirely focused on one kind of sailing just as the US tennis association is focused on one kind of court and ball game.

Badminton, ping pong, volleyball are each a lot more like tennis than Kiteboarding or Sunfish sailing is like PHRF or IOR.

A US Olympic sailing association might be a great service organization for those chasing the Olympic dream.

Such an association has no reason to dilute its focus and resources properly applied to Opti sailing and tri-Maran racing.

Summary:
USSailing should be broken up into about ten different service organizations.

And if the Olympic stuff starts taking up too much energy from an individual class association, that association can realize it is sucking resources away from its primary mission and find a way to do its job DESPITE being an Olympic class.