Pacific Cup 2022 - 91 entries and waitlist started

jackolantern

Super Anarchist
1,631
466
Any word on which sail was the offending one? Seems like you wouldn’t make the call to file that protest unless you had seen something and were confident the sail was onboard.

I’ve been the instigator in a protest like this. It sucks to do but you ultimately have to in order to have meaningful results and handicapping. Only way I was comfortable filing it was seeing the offending sail (in this case, an undeclared code zero being used in 6 knots at 90TWA in ORC. Not like the sail wasn’t declared and never left the bag) with my own eyes.

The reality with these VPP rules is that your rating can change a LOT based on what sails you declare vs. what you carry and use.

The 6hr handicap difference between those 125s was not because one was 100-200lbs lighter due to tweaks or carrying 2 pipe Berths rather than 4.
 
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Dj4surf

New member
7
0
Hawaii
Any word on which sail was the offending one? Seems like you wouldn’t make the call to file that protest unless you had seen something and were confident the sail was onboard.

I’ve been the instigator in a protest like this. It sucks to do but you ultimately have to in order to have meaningful results and handicapping. Only way I was comfortable filing it was seeing the offending sail (in this case, an undeclared code zero being used in 6 knots at 90TWA in ORC. Not like the sail wasn’t declared and never left the bag) with my own eyes.

The reality with these VPP rules is that your rating can change a LOT based on what sails you declare vs. what you carry and use.

The 6hr handicap difference between those 125s was not because one was 100-200lbs lighter due to tweaks or carrying 2 pipe Berths rather than 4.
Interesting, I’d think it would be a light air sail that wasn’t originally planned for but ended up on the boat. Bummers but part of racing.
 

fan

Super Anarchist
1,873
104
San Diego
Any word on which sail was the offending one? Seems like you wouldn’t make the call to file that protest unless you had seen something and were confident the sail was onboard.

I’ve been the instigator in a protest like this. It sucks to do but you ultimately have to in order to have meaningful results and handicapping. Only way I was comfortable filing it was seeing the offending sail (in this case, an undeclared code zero being used in 6 knots at 90TWA in ORC. Not like the sail wasn’t declared and never left the bag) with my own eyes.

The reality with these VPP rules is that your rating can change a LOT based on what sails you declare vs. what you carry and use.

The 6hr handicap difference between those 125s was not because one was 100-200lbs lighter due to tweaks or carrying 2 pipe Berths rather than 4.
I would guess it was penalty sail such as a tweener. I don't see anyway you can look at a sail like a kite and have enough confidence in the sq footage to file a protest. A penalty sail is pretty obvious if you are close enough to see the mid girth then you check their J is it 14 or 23. A couple thoughts. If Rufless didn't drop out would the protest have been disallowed? Filed 110 miles from Finnish was that hwen they foud out or when tye realized they were going to be beaten. Second Rufless dropped out thereby essentially admitting they sailed out side ORR rating was it an oversight or was it a rule 69 type violation? Really curious to hear what it was.
 
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atnan

Member
138
67
Alameda, CA
I had a fun race on Duende. She was the first Cal 40 to ever do the Pac Cup back in the day, and this year it was a first time for everyone on the crew; including Peppe our 13 year old skipper.

We were sailing 6-up, loaded up to the gills with water, diesel, beer and crew gear. Brought a lot of extra not knowing how the watermaker/solar/refrigeration systems would work out; they worked out super well and with the benefit of hindsight we could have gone with far less fuel and water.

We were also trawling fishing lines the whole way, but sadly the only fish we caught were of the flying variety 😬

It was fun racing against Azure, who are optimised for performance sailing 4-up, super light on fuel/water/gear, and heavy on experience. Very well sailed boat, which I saw first hand crewing with them for California Offshore Race Week. They crushed it, as I expected. Also really great how much their crew has helped us with advice on setting up the boat in the lead up to this race.

The Cal 40 class is really awesome, and I hope they get a one design fleet for this year’s Big Boat Series!
 
121
4
Any word on which sail was the offending one? Seems like you wouldn’t make the call to file that protest unless you had seen something and were confident the sail was onboard.

I’ve been the instigator in a protest like this. It sucks to do but you ultimately have to in order to have meaningful results and handicapping. Only way I was comfortable filing it was seeing the offending sail (in this case, an undeclared code zero being used in 6 knots at 90TWA in ORC. Not like the sail wasn’t declared and never left the bag) with my own eyes.

The reality with these VPP rules is that your rating can change a LOT based on what sails you declare vs. what you carry and use.

The 6hr handicap difference between those 125s was not because one was 100-200lbs lighter due to tweaks or carrying 2 pipe Berths rather than 4.
Since nobody other than the owner and RC actually knew what sails were declared for the cert. It's not like you can have multiple certs and then just pull the one you want out at the last minute. You would have had to decide a week before the start. The 125 ratings are not that weight sensitive (within the rather narrow band the boats sail in). To get the 2+% difference you're going to need to declare both small headsails (say 100%) AND small kites. The 125's all extend the poles out much further than how they were originally set up (like a foot further) but even using the old kites isn't small enough. you would need to have really removed a lot of sail area out. Given how competitive they were in the downwind light air racing, I can't see them having both a heavy boat and a tiny sailplan... Perhaps the certs should be available for all competitors to examine. Not knowing what they should have makes this whole situation much harder.
 
121
4
Having sailed a few 1000 miles on the old Derivative/Snoopy i can "weigh" in on the differences between 125s. I KNOW that some boats have had the headliners removed, all the wooden trim pieces replaced with carbon, looking at pictures of Hamachi and Rufless they both have removed the Metal hand rails and they both seem to have new sets of companion way stairs. And thats what easily seen, lithium batteries, and i am sure there are tons of other weight savings measures that have been done on the top boats.

I am fully aware of a J/125 that moves their pipe berths from side to side, so they only carry 2 and move them as needed to have both on one side, or split in the stern to have people sleeping in the proper place and not carrying the weight of 2 extra pipe berths.

It has been a few years since i have involved in the fleet but at that time NONE of the boats had been weighed recently even though some have been in pretty major diets. Until they all agree to weigh the boats, this will continue.
all of the changes to Hamachi were between 2013-2015 under the previous owner. There have been no real changes to the config since then and it's been weighed and measured couple of times since. It went on a diet in 2013 and a lot of the boats have followed with the same changes. It still has the same lithium batteries from 2013! The reality with the 125 is that from bone stock to "shit in a bucket" there's only 500 pounds available. Stock, everything in there is basically glass over foam, even the floors.
 

Boomerang

New member
34
3
Honolulu
Here are the ORR certificates on file for both boats. Note that Hamachi is only Partially measured and they used their own offset file. The sails are slightly smaller on Rufless. The only standout number is the RMC of HamachI. A minus number doesn’t seem correct.

According to Ronnie Simpson Rufless sailed with the declared sails. If the protest was heard it would have likely been dismissed.

This should go back to Jim Teeters and find out what if anything is wrong with the certificates.

34174C1B-B3B1-49D8-B31A-614805259007.jpeg


ACB7DC46-AE56-44B6-8A01-27F1200ACCC8.jpeg
 
121
4
When they finished, they were told there was a protest and asked at the dock by RC to identify the sails they had on board and sign the affidavit to that effect. Fast forward a few hours and they withdrew. I'm not sure what that means but they clearly believed there was a significant issue, significant enough to not want to go to the room to arbitrate it out.
 

r.finn

Super Anarchist
1,988
570
Props to Moonshine. I love seeing a plywood boat kick so much ass in an ocean race. They were over 24 hours ahead of the next boat in their class. Coincidentally, the second placed team on the Moore 24, Foamy, owned Moonshine in 1994, and wond the Pac Cup overall. Some boat!

Erik Simonson Moonshine.jpg
 

jackolantern

Super Anarchist
1,631
466
Looking at that cert, nothing strikes me as totally out of the norm. Nobody had a tweener onboard.

Agreed that the disparity among RMC numbers is something I would want explained further.

The ORR Rule says that RMC corrects for centerboards or adjustable boards and that RMC = RM for fixed keel boats. Presumably Hamachi doesn't have a centerboard, so a negative righting moment number there is interesting. Would want more explanation for that.

Only "Major" difference on the certs are Crew Weight and Spinnaker Pole Length. Rufless has declared a 1 ft longer sprit and ~500lbs more crew. That *shouldn't* be enough to trigger the major differences. Surprised at the diff. in crew weight especially when it seems obvious that you want to sail the boat with 5-6. I know that can make a surprisingly large change on your rating.

I don't think the sprit and crew weight add up to a 6s change in GPH.
 

stinky

Anarchist
946
158
Props to Moonshine. I love seeing a plywood boat kick so much ass in an ocean race. They were over 24 hours ahead of the next boat in their class. Coincidentally, the second placed team on the Moore 24, Foamy, owned Moonshine in 1994, and wond the Pac Cup overall. Some boat!

View attachment 529616
It was sad to see it leave RYC, but good to see it being used the way it should be.

They sailed a great race. Crazy that after 3 days their fleet had a 300 mile north/south spread.
 

fan

Super Anarchist
1,873
104
San Diego
No offense to Ronnie but "According to Ronnie Simpson Rufless sailed with the declared sails. If the protest was heard it would have likely been dismissed." What they dropped out because they knew they were right? What just didn't want that class win on their record. Wanted to be infamous?

The sprit extension is measured a part of the full measurement. But you are right we had someone offer to make us a new end cap that would allow the pole to go out another 3" and several other chages they had already done to reduce wieght and improve performance of a J125. When asked how much the exta extension effected rating the answer was "why would it effect rating?....". I am hoping what happend can be leveraged the class to have all boats re-measured on some consistent frequency. Every J125 is slightly different but they should all have confidence the others are sailing within rated configuration. The J125's are sailing at too high a level to just be run what you brung
 

montey_burns

Anarchist
612
3
here
Seems like the Hamachi crew are the biggest bunch of fucking assholes on the planet.
This is a bold and inflammatory claim. Clearly, they are the biggest assholes in the race and probably the biggest assholes in Hawaii but I'd argue they have some competition if you're looking at the entire planet.
 

MPH

Super Anarchist
1,802
95
NW
This is a bold and inflammatory claim. Clearly, they are the biggest assholes in the race and probably the biggest assholes in Hawaii but I'd argue they have some competition if you're looking at the entire planet.
So we’re calling the guys who filed the protest assholes not the guys who were caught blatantly cheating….makes a ton of sense!
 

montey_burns

Anarchist
612
3
here
So we’re calling the guys who filed the protest assholes not the guys who were caught blatantly cheating….makes a ton of sense!
First of all I was actually defending Hamachi saying they weren't really the biggest assholes on the planet. Also, I didn't say it was only the guys who physically filed the protest after they determined that they were going to lose the fun race to Hawaii assholes.

How many days of your vacation would you want to waste on a colonoscopy? Do you think Hamachi would have passed the same scrutiny? Would they still have lost the election even if the alleged fraud had occurred?
 
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First of all I was actually defending Hamachi saying they weren't really the biggest assholes on the planet. Also, I didn't say it was only the guys who physically filed the protest after they determined that they were going to lose the fun race to Hawaii assholes.

How many days of your vacation would you want to waste on a colonoscopy? Do you think Hamachi would have passed the same scrutiny? Would they still have lost the election even if the alleged fraud had occurred?
I suspect they would have passed the same inspection, as it's not really that complicated.
 

NoStrings

Super Anarchist
8,088
6
Richmond, CA
The post race nspections are pretty straightforward. You will be checked for safety gear, emergency water, heavy wx sails of your choosing, and ANY noted discrepancies from your pre-race inspection.
 




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