Pacific Cup 2022 - 91 entries and waitlist started

IMR

Anarchist
582
115
SF Bay Area
Here are the ORR certificates on file for both boats. Note that Hamachi is only Partially measured and they used their own offset file. The sails are slightly smaller on Rufless. The only standout number is the RMC of HamachI. A minus number doesn’t seem correct.

According to Ronnie Simpson Rufless sailed with the declared sails. If the protest was heard it would have likely been dismissed.

This should go back to Jim Teeters and find out what if anything is wrong with the certificates.

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interesting the Pole (TPS) is 13" shorter on Hamachi than on Ruffles. The Velvet Hammer cert I have from 2019 Transpac our TSP matches Ruffles. Seems odd that Hamachi's pole is 13" shorter. Would be nice to pull a tape on the Hamachi pole and confirm, is the boat still at KYC?
 
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jhc

Super Anarchist
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226
Hey I'm MR, that is a good way to get arrested. You are an f-ing idiot for suggesting that.

The J-125s have a long history of questionable behavior in the Pacific Races. May be something about "small" boat sailors, and their inherent inferiority complex...

Missing propellers, mid race rating changes, undeclared sails aboard, unwise internet postings, and such are unfortunately common in this fleet. This latest is par for the course.
I am sure with the withdrawal of Rufus in this years Pac Cup the speculation will persist for a looong time. Fact is, there are no facts.
I learned a while back that compliance spot checks, of boats by their competitors, is a great way to further the rumor mill without any resolution.
The RC, PRO, and the organization"s" that put these handicaps on paper should be the route to ensure competitor compliance. Those groups are in a position to deal properly with issues that come up. However, they are also running on budgets that are minuscule compared to the operating budgets of the competitors.
I'd like to see reform in the area of sailmaker generated "sail certificates". These are accepted as fact by the rating boards, and very difficult to question in protest. That is one area where most one design classes have done much better management of speed producing variations in set up.

I don't expect to see improvement in rating compliance. Especially when competitors who sail aboard a boat they claim is admittedly out out rating trim is accusing another boat of doing similar. And when a boat protested for an infringement is allowed to cloak the issue with a retirement.
 
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jhc

Super Anarchist
2,366
226
Sorry - your suggesting that I would get arrested for measuring the pole on Hamachi that's "fucking stupid". 13 inches of pole length is huge in orr ratings. Something is off with the Hamachi rating, next time that boats raced in a big event I am sure there will be a protest.
Actually pole length is not the big factor in ORR. It's sail area.
And hey, go ahead, measure away, then publish your result on the internet. A great way to make your point. Include your name and address, so it's all very clear.
What is your point? That Hamachi's rating should be challenged? For having a faster handicap? That they shouldn't hold your friend's hand in the fire? That everyones doing it?
Pathetic.
 
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Sorry - your suggesting that I would get arrested for measuring the pole on Hamachi that's "fucking stupid". 13 inches of pole length is huge in orr ratings. Something is off with the Hamachi rating, next time that boats raced in a big event I am sure there will be a protest.
you do understand that hamachi is rated 2.5% FASTER than ruffles, faster than any other 125, not SLOWER.. Your logic is broken here.
 

jhc

Super Anarchist
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226
I am not hiding on the internet, my name is Ian M Rogers and I live the San Francisco Bay Area. I was on Velvet Hammer in the 2019 Transpac so I have an interest in Hamachi's rating.

What's your name and address?
...and I thought your name is I Am Mentally Retarded. Sorry about the mis-understanding.
I'm merely attempting to educate your sorry *ss on the intricacy of human relations, and handicapping. I will not be providing my name and location.
 

jhc

Super Anarchist
2,366
226
How about we agree you are talking s**t about a class winner, and third OA in this year's Pacific Cup, and trying to induce someone to trespass aboard someone's private yacht, and commit vandalism. All to support your ill informed fantasy?
You really should put your past failures behind you and move on.
 

Trevor B

Super Anarchist
1,921
135
Santa Cruz, CA
How about we agree you are talking s**t about a class winner, and third OA in this year's Pacific Cup, and trying to induce someone to trespass aboard someone's private yacht, and commit vandalism. All to support your ill informed fantasy?
You really should put your past failures behind you and move on.
Now we know why you want to remain anonymous, you’re an idiot.
 

MPH

Super Anarchist
1,802
95
NW
The gaslighting here is fucking insane. We want to investigate Hamachi’s rating as the FASTEST rated 125 and not Rufless(the slowest in PC22) or Velvet Hammer(slowest in TP19)??

Ian, can you explain why Velvet Hammer rated nearly 1.5 hours slower than Hamachi during the 2019 Transpac? In fact… VH rated significantly slower than Hamachi, Snoopy AND Reinrag.

But yes let’s investigate Hamachi’s rating…
 

jhc

Super Anarchist
2,366
226
The gaslighting here is fucking insane. We want to investigate Hamachi’s rating as the FASTEST rated 125 and not Rufless(the slowest in PC22) or Velvet Hammer(slowest in TP19)??

Ian, can you explain why Velvet Hammer rated nearly 1.5 hours slower than Hamachi during the 2019 Transpac? In fact… VH rated significantly slower than Hamachi, Snoopy AND Reinrag.

But yes let’s investigate Hamachi’s rating…
Hamachi's rating is not in question. Unless you gaslighting, bitter, and proudly onymous people can explain why there should be an inquisition into, and innuendo filled effort to throw s**t onto what appear to be very successful yachtsmen, you should STFU.
BTW, I just got a Pac Cup email advertising the trophy presentation tonight. You should tune in. I read there is an extra helping of crow on the menu.
 

montey_burns

Anarchist
612
3
here
Hamachi's rating is not in question. Unless you gaslighting, bitter, and proudly onymous people can explain why there should be an inquisition into, and innuendo filled effort to throw s**t onto what appear to be very successful yachtsmen, you should STFU.
BTW, I just got a Pac Cup email advertising the trophy presentation tonight. You should tune in. I read there is an extra helping of crow on the menu.
methinks thou dost protest too much

Congrats on gaining a trophy and losing everyone's respect rotten tuna.
 
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Roleur

Super Anarchist
2,953
647
Orcas Island
I am totally lost here. From above I've learned that protesting is bad, but cheating is okay. Weird. But here is where it gets weirder... Two J/125's. Run what you brung, heck with ratings? Hamachi did cross the line ahead of Rufless. We're all clear on that, yes? So... The answer is, despite you crossed the line ahead of the other boat and despite the fact the other boat has a rating that is outside of the range of J/125's, you should just go home and shut up because it is disrespectful to finish ahead of another boat, question their rating, and have the other boat withdraw. How do you explain that to a non-sailor, or a child?
 
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the biggest difference that would actually matter is the extra 500 pounds of crew weight that that rufless declared. (it's about 300 pounds per person) While I do not believe this to be a violation of the rule, as it's a maximum, it has a huge impact on your SA/D and your wetted surface...and in a downwind race this extra 500 pounds would have a negative impact on rating, but since you're not actually carrying the weight it's a bonus. Perhaps this is a bit of a hole in the way the rule is set up. Ruffles also has a 10% smaller headsail and a smaller main declared.
 
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I am totally lost here. From above I've learned that protesting is bad, but cheating is okay. Weird. But here is where it gets weirder... Two J/125's. Run what you brung, heck with ratings? Hamachi did cross the line ahead of Rufless. We're all clear on that, yes? So... The answer is, despite you crossed the line ahead of the other boat and despite the fact the other boat has a rating that is outside of the range of J/125's, you should just go home and shut up because it is disrespectful to finish ahead of another boat, question their rating, and have the other boat withdraw. How do you explain that to a non-sailor, or a child?
great summation. You could be a lawyer with skills like that...
 

stinky

Anarchist
946
158
I am totally lost here. From above I've learned that protesting is bad, but cheating is okay. Weird. But here is where it gets weirder... Two J/125's. Run what you brung, heck with ratings? Hamachi did cross the line ahead of Rufless. We're all clear on that, yes? So... The answer is, despite you crossed the line ahead of the other boat and despite the fact the other boat has a rating that is outside of the range of J/125's, you should just go home and shut up because it is disrespectful to finish ahead of another boat, question their rating, and have the other boat withdraw. How do you explain that to a non-sailor, or a child?
I think this is one of those times where a short email or phone call before the race would have made everyone happier.

As I hear it, Ruffles decided they'ed rather spend their vacation vacationing rather than litigating, and believe they would have won the protest on merit.

Perhaps they would have, perhaps they wouldn't have, but either way, this seems like a pretty terrible way for both crews to end an amazing race.

I'm curious if IMR and Trevor still think ORR should be the only rating system used by the Pac Cup going forward, and if so, what changes would be needed to avoid situations like this one.
 

jhc

Super Anarchist
2,366
226
I think this is one of those times where a short email or phone call before the race would have made everyone happier.

As I hear it, Ruffles decided they'ed rather spend their vacation vacationing rather than litigating, and believe they would have won the protest on merit.

Perhaps they would have, perhaps they wouldn't have, but either way, this seems like a pretty terrible way for both crews to end an amazing race.

I'm curious if IMR and Trevor still think ORR should be the only rating system used by the Pac Cup going forward, and if so, what changes would be needed to avoid situations like this one.
interesting the Pole (TPS) is 13" shorter on Hamachi than on Ruffles. The Velvet Hammer cert I have from 2019 Transpac our TSP matches Ruffles. Seems odd that Hamachi's pole is 13" shorter. Would be nice to pull a tape on the Hamachi pole and confirm, is the boat still at KYC?

The gaslighting here is fucking insane. We want to investigate Hamachi’s rating as the FASTEST rated 125 and not Rufless(the slowest in PC22) or Velvet Hammer(slowest in TP19)??

Ian, can you explain why Velvet Hammer rated nearly 1.5 hours slower than Hamachi during the 2019 Transpac? In fact… VH rated significantly slower than Hamachi, Snoopy AND Reinrag.

But yes let’s investigate Hamachi’s rating…
I for one would like to get an answer to MPH's query.
Crickets?
 

jhc

Super Anarchist
2,366
226
I would be happy to compare the orr certs. I only have the vh cert from
2019. Can someone send me the others?

I do know that we were 1000 pounds heavier. We had a ‘head’ and all the floor boards around the mast, along with a partial head liner, we had standard rod vs carbon rigging. I don’t know all the other differences but I am willing to review the certs if someone has them.
You have suggested the cert. review of Hamachi is insufficient. That measurements should be taken, as the Pac Cup trophies are being handed out. Your offer to review the 2019 certs. seems inconsistent with your attitude toward Hamachi this year.
You might agree that post race is not the best time to pull out a tape measure. Or bag on the winner because....
I think Hamachi's actions, and the result, was appropriate for the circumstance. The question for you is: Do you think your 2019 VH cert. would have survived the same scrutiny years ago?

I'm only asking you that because this thread has opened up even more stuff I had no idea was going on in the j-125 class. I had my own experience years ago. At the time I felt it was something the RC, and rating committee should deal with, as the incidents were common knowledge. We didn't protest, took second overall. I have no problem with Hamachi filing their protest, it's smart to defend. It discourages future monkey business.
We should have race organizations that look into things when there is an issue. If there is a crew, or weight compensation discrepancy between two identical boats why not get that cleared up prior to the event? Or, a protest with a follow through. The race organizer should promote a rule that is possible to enforce.

When people point the finger at the winner, or loser without knowledge, and say "they cheat". That's not productive.
 

Trevor B

Super Anarchist
1,921
135
Santa Cruz, CA
Hamachi had every bit of excess weight removed, had no through hulls, no head, super light charging system, super light batteries, all carbon trim, carbon hatches and hatch boards, etc. It also had the rig stiffened with high modulus pre-preg, carbon rigging installed, the quick-vang removed, etc. This was all done before the current owners bought the boat, with the intention of building the fastest 125 possible, rating be damned.
Rufus has done some work to his boat, but I don’t think it was done to nearly the same extent.
 




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