Pacific Cup 2022 - 91 entries and waitlist started

Boomerang

New member
35
3
Honolulu
Here is the Velvet Hammer ORR cert. They have 2 on file that are current but I think this is the one they used in PacCup.

2609B7EE-13CA-4A2D-AA0D-89608411344B.jpeg
 
121
4
I think this is one of those times where a short email or phone call before the race would have made everyone happier.

As I hear it, Ruffles decided they'ed rather spend their vacation vacationing rather than litigating, and believe they would have won the protest on merit.

Perhaps they would have, perhaps they wouldn't have, but either way, this seems like a pretty terrible way for both crews to end an amazing race.

I'm curious if IMR and Trevor still think ORR should be the only rating system used by the Pac Cup going forward, and if so, what changes would be needed to avoid situations like this one.
So what you're saying is that after racing for 10 days and prepping for countless hours that spending another 45 minutes in a hearing was a bridge too far? I would have to call bullshit on this concept. Even if there was a finding that "something wasn't quite right" in all likeliehood the penalty would not have been getting tossed, it would have been a time penalty. Sooo. what was going on that was so bad that exposing it would have meant more than "just your typical infraction" Nobody fights for 10 days but then doesn't want to spend 45 more minutes on something "they would surely win"...
Here is the Velvet Hammer ORR cert. They have 2 on file that are current but I think this is the one they used in PacCup.

View attachment 530125
A clever person could just go to the valid list, grab the data from all of the certs, put it into a spreadsheet and then begin to tease out exactly how ruffles got such a low rating, and what others may do to hack their ratings..Being bord, I did just that. Here's the highlights: Mainsail: Rufless is at 507, Hamachi 523 and VH (above) is at 533. Rig weight: VH is the heaviest at 328, with hamachi and rufless both near 309. Interesting bit is mast CG for rufless is 18 vs 16 for everyone else. Headsail's Rufless is also the smallest of the west coast boats at 511 with the rest being 550 ish Everybody's displacement is around 9,500 +/- 50 so nothing to see there. Crew weight is wildly different with Rufless and Nered are at 1700 and hamachi and VH are around 1150, so there's a big thing. Downwind sails: Rufless with the lowest at 1724 and VH at 1836 and hamachi in the middle. All of this yields a low SA/D for Rufless and a very high one for VH, which seems to have no bearing on the actual rating The only difference is that Rufless has a smaller prop declared. 1.25 vs 1.3, a very small difference. The numbers on the certs seem pretty normal (well, nereid and arsenal have individual anomalies). With relatively small changes, Rufless got a 2.5% slower rating and still sailed just as fast, so the question is: how does everyone else do it.
 

Trevor B

Super Anarchist
1,939
154
Santa Cruz, CA
Rufless got a 2.5% slower rating and still sailed just as fast, so the question is: how does everyone else do it.
I don’t think Rufles sailed just as fast. Hamachi made at least two large tactical errors (coming to the middle just before the north started paying and going hard south too early and thus missing out on the large shift that everyone else got,) and they reported all sorts of mechanical issues.
I think if Hamachi had sailed a more normal course without the equipment errors they would have beat Rufless by a mile, which is another reason this protest rubs the wrong way.
 

yoyo

Anarchist
762
321
Someone knows why they withdrew ....... we are still waiting to hear it.

It's not just a matter of who got 1st or 2nd. There were 7 boats in that class. 5 of them may not have known anything but I'd guess a few would be a bit pissed to find out after the fact that rules may have been broken if Rufless wasn't protested, hadn't withdrawn and was scored.
 

Boomerang

New member
35
3
Honolulu
So what you're saying is that after racing for 10 days and prepping for countless hours that spending another 45 minutes in a hearing was a bridge too far? I would have to call bullshit on this concept. Even if there was a finding that "something wasn't quite right" in all likeliehood the penalty would not have been getting tossed, it would have been a time penalty. Sooo. what was going on that was so bad that exposing it would have meant more than "just your typical infraction" Nobody fights for 10 days but then doesn't want to spend 45 more minutes on something "they would surely win"...

A clever person could just go to the valid list, grab the data from all of the certs, put it into a spreadsheet and then begin to tease out exactly how ruffles got such a low rating, and what others may do to hack their ratings..Being bord, I did just that. Here's the highlights: Mainsail: Rufless is at 507, Hamachi 523 and VH (above) is at 533. Rig weight: VH is the heaviest at 328, with hamachi and rufless both near 309. Interesting bit is mast CG for rufless is 18 vs 16 for everyone else. Headsail's Rufless is also the smallest of the west coast boats at 511 with the rest being 550 ish Everybody's displacement is around 9,500 +/- 50 so nothing to see there. Crew weight is wildly different with Rufless and Nered are at 1700 and hamachi and VH are around 1150, so there's a big thing. Downwind sails: Rufless with the lowest at 1724 and VH at 1836 and hamachi in the middle. All of this yields a low SA/D for Rufless and a very high one for VH, which seems to have no bearing on the actual rating The only difference is that Rufless has a smaller prop declared. 1.25 vs 1.3, a very small difference. The numbers on the certs seem pretty normal (well, nereid and arsenal have individual anomalies). With relatively small changes, Rufless got a 2.5% slower rating and still sailed just as fast, so the question is: how does everyone else do it.
Rufless has a sleeved mast about 0.5M above the boom gooseneck. That might account for the mast CG change.

D8AEB95D-7C6A-4D35-BD82-FBD708E07AB8.jpeg
 

JSoup

Anarchist
679
8
Portland, OR
R
I think my only real question is: do I do it again in 2 years? My boat feels a bit slow for a Transpac race, but is a good competitive boat in the PacCup.

Damn, that was fun.
Raz'r - what boat is yours? We have the J/105 Free Bowl of Soup. Just getting back to reality here at home.
 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,545
682
Boston, MA
Hamachi had every bit of excess weight removed, had no through hulls, no head, super light charging system, super light batteries, all carbon trim, carbon hatches and hatch boards, etc. It also had the rig stiffened with high modulus pre-preg, carbon rigging installed, the quick-vang removed, etc.
Judging by the youtube video they removed all the life jackets too. I can't imagine having to go from 20+ knots to 0 to pick up someone who got washed
 

Crew

Anarchist
544
3
some airport
I am curious in video which pans through the cabin showing all the water bottles stacked on the "high" side. While stacking sails has been a subject of interpretation in the Pacific Cup historically, water on the other hand I though (I may very well be wrong) was prohibited.
 

MPH

Super Anarchist
1,825
124
NW
I am curious in video which pans through the cabin showing all the water bottles stacked on the "high" side. While stacking sails has been a subject of interpretation in the Pacific Cup historically, water on the other hand I though (I may very well be wrong) was prohibited.
Per the Pacific Cup NOR

9. Before the start, a boat shall exhibit no more than two degrees list in either measurement trim or when fully provisioned, fueled and loaded with race gear (canting keel centered, no crew aboard, ballast tanks empty, and without any sails being stowed or stacked to counteract any list). Underway, sails may be moved for purposes of adjusting righting moment or trim (i.e., “sail stacking” is permitted) but must be kept within the lifelines and stanchions of the boat. No stores or deadweight, other than sails and moveable ballast indicated on such boat's rating certificate, may be moved to change the boat’s list or righting moment. This changes RRS 51.

Sail stacking is not "a subject of interpretation" it is explicitly permitted. Stacking water on the starboard side is similarly permitted, as long as it was done before the start and doesn't induce more than 2 degrees of list....
 

briarpatch

New member
10
5
Gulf Coast
Hey, SA, what's with the hate for ORR?! You sound like Scuttlebutt! ORC is about as status quo as it gets. Competition in the marketplace is a good thing, no? Anyhow...

There is a quirk of the VPPs for ORR and ORC International & Club (but not ORR-Ez*) which allows an owner to game the system using declared crew weight. This could explain why RUFLESS declared a higher crew weight, although it's not strictly illegal.

Crew weight is used in two ways by the ORR & ORC VPPs: stability (righting moment of crew on the rail) and sailing displacement (crew weight presses the boat into the water). If an owner declares a higher crew weight, their predicted upwind performance speeds up, because they have more stability. HOWEVER, off the wind, their performance *slows down* because there is more displacement, wetted surface, etc. Thus, by declaring more crew weight - which you are not required to actually carry - you can improve your off-wind and light air ratings. Neato.

*ORR-Ez recognized this loophole and uses only the default - not declared - crew weight for the displacement calculations. Theoretically, this sacrifices some accuracy, but it also prevents gaming the system without the need for policing and enforcement.

The only way for events like PacCup to prevent this practice is to police and enforce reasonable crew weight limits. Maybe check the winners in each class. You can do the math yourself... Check the number of crew listed on the registration and divide that into the declared crew weight on the rating certificate. RUFLESS was *not* the only boat that claimed to be crewed by NFL linemen!
 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,618
1,345
Melbourne
This sounds like a targeted protest and it also sounds like it was planned with the timing etc to inflict maximum hurt. I do remember a similar thing happening to me when I went interstate to race and was given the word that I would be protested re my rating. My response was the protester would have to pay for my re-measurement and I would be happy to concur. The shock to the protester and or protesters was that I ended up with a better rating at their expense. Karma perhaps LOL?
 




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