solosailor
Super Anarchist
They were posted a few pages back.
Pacific Cup 2022 - 91 entries and waitlist started
- Thread starter Roleur
- Start date
robalex117
Super Anarchist
East coaster here trying to follow this thread and waiting to see why Rufless retired. Lots of innuendo comments about the 125 class and questionable ratings. But for those in the know why did Rufless retire?
Irrational 14
Super Anarchist
Great Job. I know you’ve put a ton of effort into your program for a while and it shows.
yisitalwaysraining
Member
- 121
- 4
So what you're saying is that after racing for 10 days and prepping for countless hours that spending another 45 minutes in a hearing was a bridge too far? I would have to call bullshit on this concept. Even if there was a finding that "something wasn't quite right" in all likeliehood the penalty would not have been getting tossed, it would have been a time penalty. Sooo. what was going on that was so bad that exposing it would have meant more than "just your typical infraction" Nobody fights for 10 days but then doesn't want to spend 45 more minutes on something "they would surely win"...
A clever person could just go to the valid list, grab the data from all of the certs, put it into a spreadsheet and then begin to tease out exactly how ruffles got such a low rating, and what others may do to hack their ratings..Being bord, I did just that. Here's the highlights: Mainsail: Rufless is at 507, Hamachi 523 and VH (above) is at 533. Rig weight: VH is the heaviest at 328, with hamachi and rufless both near 309. Interesting bit is mast CG for rufless is 18 vs 16 for everyone else. Headsail's Rufless is also the smallest of the west coast boats at 511 with the rest being 550 ish Everybody's displacement is around 9,500 +/- 50 so nothing to see there. Crew weight is wildly different with Rufless and Nered are at 1700 and hamachi and VH are around 1150, so there's a big thing. Downwind sails: Rufless with the lowest at 1724 and VH at 1836 and hamachi in the middle. All of this yields a low SA/D for Rufless and a very high one for VH, which seems to have no bearing on the actual rating The only difference is that Rufless has a smaller prop declared. 1.25 vs 1.3, a very small difference. The numbers on the certs seem pretty normal (well, nereid and arsenal have individual anomalies). With relatively small changes, Rufless got a 2.5% slower rating and still sailed just as fast, so the question is: how does everyone else do it.
Trevor B
Super Anarchist
I don’t think Rufles sailed just as fast. Hamachi made at least two large tactical errors (coming to the middle just before the north started paying and going hard south too early and thus missing out on the large shift that everyone else got,) and they reported all sorts of mechanical issues.
I think if Hamachi had sailed a more normal course without the equipment errors they would have beat Rufless by a mile, which is another reason this protest rubs the wrong way.
Someone knows why they withdrew ....... we are still waiting to hear it.
It's not just a matter of who got 1st or 2nd. There were 7 boats in that class. 5 of them may not have known anything but I'd guess a few would be a bit pissed to find out after the fact that rules may have been broken if Rufless wasn't protested, hadn't withdrawn and was scored.
It's not just a matter of who got 1st or 2nd. There were 7 boats in that class. 5 of them may not have known anything but I'd guess a few would be a bit pissed to find out after the fact that rules may have been broken if Rufless wasn't protested, hadn't withdrawn and was scored.
Rufless has a sleeved mast about 0.5M above the boom gooseneck. That might account for the mast CG change.
JSoup
Anarchist
R
Raz'r - what boat is yours? We have the J/105 Free Bowl of Soup. Just getting back to reality here at home.
averagehack
Member
Soup -- Great race! You were really moving after the first 4 days.
We ran Kahoots in ORR Div 1...
yisitalwaysraining
Member
- 121
- 4
Given how noodly the rigs are, I'm surprised more haven't been broken. Some of the other rigs got stiffeners to avoid this eventuality, but yea, this could certainly do it.
ryley
Super Anarchist
Judging by the youtube video they removed all the life jackets too. I can't imagine having to go from 20+ knots to 0 to pick up someone who got washed
Crew
Anarchist
I am curious in video which pans through the cabin showing all the water bottles stacked on the "high" side. While stacking sails has been a subject of interpretation in the Pacific Cup historically, water on the other hand I though (I may very well be wrong) was prohibited.
Per the Pacific Cup NOR
9. Before the start, a boat shall exhibit no more than two degrees list in either measurement trim or when fully provisioned, fueled and loaded with race gear (canting keel centered, no crew aboard, ballast tanks empty, and without any sails being stowed or stacked to counteract any list). Underway, sails may be moved for purposes of adjusting righting moment or trim (i.e., “sail stacking” is permitted) but must be kept within the lifelines and stanchions of the boat. No stores or deadweight, other than sails and moveable ballast indicated on such boat's rating certificate, may be moved to change the boat’s list or righting moment. This changes RRS 51.
Sail stacking is not "a subject of interpretation" it is explicitly permitted. Stacking water on the starboard side is similarly permitted, as long as it was done before the start and doesn't induce more than 2 degrees of list....
briarpatch
New member
Hey, SA, what's with the hate for ORR?! You sound like Scuttlebutt! ORC is about as status quo as it gets. Competition in the marketplace is a good thing, no? Anyhow...
There is a quirk of the VPPs for ORR and ORC International & Club (but not ORR-Ez*) which allows an owner to game the system using declared crew weight. This could explain why RUFLESS declared a higher crew weight, although it's not strictly illegal.
Crew weight is used in two ways by the ORR & ORC VPPs: stability (righting moment of crew on the rail) and sailing displacement (crew weight presses the boat into the water). If an owner declares a higher crew weight, their predicted upwind performance speeds up, because they have more stability. HOWEVER, off the wind, their performance *slows down* because there is more displacement, wetted surface, etc. Thus, by declaring more crew weight - which you are not required to actually carry - you can improve your off-wind and light air ratings. Neato.
*ORR-Ez recognized this loophole and uses only the default - not declared - crew weight for the displacement calculations. Theoretically, this sacrifices some accuracy, but it also prevents gaming the system without the need for policing and enforcement.
The only way for events like PacCup to prevent this practice is to police and enforce reasonable crew weight limits. Maybe check the winners in each class. You can do the math yourself... Check the number of crew listed on the registration and divide that into the declared crew weight on the rating certificate. RUFLESS was *not* the only boat that claimed to be crewed by NFL linemen!
There is a quirk of the VPPs for ORR and ORC International & Club (but not ORR-Ez*) which allows an owner to game the system using declared crew weight. This could explain why RUFLESS declared a higher crew weight, although it's not strictly illegal.
Crew weight is used in two ways by the ORR & ORC VPPs: stability (righting moment of crew on the rail) and sailing displacement (crew weight presses the boat into the water). If an owner declares a higher crew weight, their predicted upwind performance speeds up, because they have more stability. HOWEVER, off the wind, their performance *slows down* because there is more displacement, wetted surface, etc. Thus, by declaring more crew weight - which you are not required to actually carry - you can improve your off-wind and light air ratings. Neato.
*ORR-Ez recognized this loophole and uses only the default - not declared - crew weight for the displacement calculations. Theoretically, this sacrifices some accuracy, but it also prevents gaming the system without the need for policing and enforcement.
The only way for events like PacCup to prevent this practice is to police and enforce reasonable crew weight limits. Maybe check the winners in each class. You can do the math yourself... Check the number of crew listed on the registration and divide that into the declared crew weight on the rating certificate. RUFLESS was *not* the only boat that claimed to be crewed by NFL linemen!
terrafirma
Super Anarchist
This sounds like a targeted protest and it also sounds like it was planned with the timing etc to inflict maximum hurt. I do remember a similar thing happening to me when I went interstate to race and was given the word that I would be protested re my rating. My response was the protester would have to pay for my re-measurement and I would be happy to concur. The shock to the protester and or protesters was that I ended up with a better rating at their expense. Karma perhaps LOL?
