Pack type sailcover that doesn't act like a funnel

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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Myrtle Beach,
As Ugly as this may be, it should work.

After you zip your cover closed, pull a "tent" up the trough from topping lift to mast.

I can be made of a coated waterproof material (or Gortex) and would have a ridge line to keep it tented for shedding.

At each of your lazy jacks you have a small velcro slit to allow it to extend below the batten, and provide lateral security
 

DDW

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That's kinda what my second drawing achieves? Not sure I'm understanding your third sentence though.
 

LionessRacing

Super Anarchist
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592
Myrtle Beach,
That's kinda what my second drawing achieves? Not sure I'm understanding your third sentence though.
The Ridge line to keep "tented" or the slit at the Lazy Jack?
the Ridge line would be a simple 1/8" paracord sewn into a hem that supported the catenary of a tent.

The Slits at the lazy jacks are so that the tent can extend past the cover battens.
 

Naldini

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Seattle
received an email update from the forum with this thread as the title - a bit serendipitous as I was doing quite a bit of research the past day on how to diy a stack pack.
There are some good suggestions already here - my thought which doesn’t seem to be mentioned is: what about an extra panel/piece of fabric that covers the top portion of the “funnel”. It could be added pretty easily with button snaps maybe and just be left on the stack pack when not sailing. Remove it during use and it’s the “regular” cover system.
Zippers seem really convenient for open/closing the pack but I’ve been thinking about “asymmetric top/side fabric” folding to one side closed with snaps to guarantee no water can get in.

Good luck!
 

Marcjsmith

Super Anarchist
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Washington DC
So far. I have not had any water storage issue with my stack. And I used a bolt rope tape under the food of the main, no vents. I did had some bird issues this spring though.

The battens are higher than the zipper and does crest a trough. But fore aft slope keeps water from pooling
Here is the thread. https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/t...ve-tips-for-making.221643/page-2#post-7745026

I do need to make one minor change this season and that is to move the forward lazy jack about 2’ closer to the mast to prevent sag

@Jules also has a thread about one they made. Have to search for it though.

A6039F40-F48B-411C-9ECC-611A01643D01.jpeg
 

Jules

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Punta Gorda
@Jules also has a thread about one they made. Have to search for it though.
Here you go...
 

sailingrr

New member
Looks like most of the ideas are for preventing water intrusion. I figured some water inside was inevitable for whatever reason so I sewed in some mesh panel sections at the bottom of the pack. This allows for some (but not all) the water to drain. Won't help with what accumulates on the sail itself, but helps keep it from pooling in the pack. I'll probably put more in my next one.
 

CapDave

Member
393
317
Sint Maarten
We can get 20 gallons out of our main after a rainy interval! I don't think it's coming through the zipper. We're going to try applying waterproofing to the "wings" between the stackpack top batten and the center zipper. Big clue - the P.O. had a big container of it in the lazarette.

North 3Di, no mildew....
 

DDW

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There are some good suggestions already here - my thought which doesn’t seem to be mentioned is: what about an extra panel/piece of fabric that covers the top portion of the “funnel”. It could be added pretty easily with button snaps maybe and just be left on the stack pack when not sailing. Remove it during use and it’s the “regular” cover system.
Since the sail folds itself into the pack differently each time, it's hard to guarantee a peaked shape on any flap over the top, without some kind of batten/topping lift holding it that way.
Why over engineer it with a cover for the cover? Get rid of the stack pack, go with adjustable lazy jacks that can be pulled forward and just use a std sail cover. The stack pack can be removed easily.
You must be used to small mainsails.
So far. I have not had any water storage issue with my stack. And I used a bolt rope tape under the food of the main, no vents. I did had some bird issues this spring though.
Water will surely leak through that, anything that hits the top surface is potentially going in the sail unless there is sufficient aft slope to shed it aft 25' before it can flow sideways 4". I don't think all the water comes through the zipper, it is perfectly capable of soaking through the Sunbrella or stitching.

I've read all the prior threads, every boat is different and mine particularly. With a short level boom you can get some consistent aft slope, also you have a chance of flaking the sail so that each time it is about the same bundle. Getting that aft slope all the way from mast to clew will require a new rig on my boat, not happening. So the water needs to shed to the sides, not aft. Most of the examples in the prior threads have battens and wings similar to my existing Stackpack and will not shed water to the sides. The few exceptions seem to depend on a very predicable bundle of furled sail, which itself bulks the top up to a water shedding shape, or perhaps have the battens well down the sides making the flaps to the zipper pretty wide. The issue I see with the latter is those will end up under the sail after I drop it and digging them out will not be easy.
 

NavyDoc

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Maryland
We have the same issues. The first year we owned our Southerly 49, I added several grommets to the bottom of the cover near the bolt rope. This did little, as most of the water accumulates in the folds of the sail. We can’t get enough slope in the boom (or in the sail cover) to get adequate drainage. We do occasionally get thoroughly drenched with skanky water when hoisting the main, and have learned to slide the hatch closed to keep the saloon dry. Our zipper is discontinuous, so I tried attaching a halyard to a batten that we zip inside the cover, then tension the halyard to tent the cover up. This helped but it is cumbersome. This season I have been easing the lazy jacks after the cover is zipped closed, so the battens sag and the midline zipper is the highest point. We seem to get the least amount of water inside the sail cover this way. I just have to remember to tighten the jacks before I drop the main. On our previous boat (a J/105) we had lazy jacks that had to be pulled forward to fit the conventional sail cover. After a while we quit using the lazy jacks. The mainwas better behaved— plus I could easily reach up to adjust a few messy flakes. It was a lot simpler, and putting on the cover was easier than wrestling with this big stiff Norlam sail. Next boat will have a furling main. Problem solved, to be replaced by other problems.
 

nlmasopust

Member
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23
WRT Cloth-based solutions to this problem, Sunbrella does make a 'waterproof' version, "Sunbrella Plus" which some places still stock. It has a PU coating on the 'backing' side and carries a pretty good water column rating (1000mm + IIRC). Use this material for the top panel with the zippered area, and standard Sunbrella for breathability and drying out on the side panels. The colors should match pretty darned closely if you're into that sort of thing. The water will they mostly just drain off the aft end of the boom.

OR use something like Weathermax for the whole thing, which is naturally hydrophobic as it's polyester. Sunbrella, though it's acrylic and can last many years in extremely harsh UV, is woven from a spun yarn which stretches and loses shape over time and of course is not hydrophobic naturally and depends on a Durable Water Repellency chemical applied in finishing and/or later treatments by the owner once that DWR wears off. Weathermax is a filament yarn and tends to keep its shape longer due to reduced stretch.

I think they share the same 10 year warranty now, but honestly I still think acrylic based fabrics will outlast polyester ones for outright UV protection especially if the cloth is used 100% of the time in equatorial regions. If you are not always in the tropics, though, polyester fabrics that have UV inhibitors masterbatched into their yarns when they are spun are a very good option, and often overlooked by canvas and sailmakers.

There is a third type, polyester substrate with acrylic-based impregnation coating, which is also quite waterproof and has excellent longevity. Top Gun is one such fabric. It is incredibly durable stuff and I suspect would outlast even Sunbrella. However the look and stiff hand-feel of this type of cloth makes it less desirable for sail covers, though in a stack pack it might work well. It would not breathe as well as uncoated cloth, so the sail may not dry out as easily.

Huh, look at that, cloth is just like boats. They are all a compromise! :)
 
I’ve seen a few posts on a traditional cover with lazy jacks. I was planning to convert my traditional cover to a stack pack once new sail arrives but after reading this posting I’m going to keep my traditional sail cover. I sail and race a 46’ sailboat with 18’ foot and very large roach main sail. Jack lines attach to bottom of boom not the sail track as most stack packs attach. We losses the Jack lines once sail is stored and put the cover on, yes it’s a hassle, but sail never gets wet and is attached under the boom with twist clips so it can also breath. I suggest re-thinking your problem to determine if you could change Jack line attachment to under the boom and use a traditional cover. It will certainly be harder to install and remove but it will solve all your moisture issues. It also doesn’t effect the wind on the bottom of the sail while underway.
 

DDW

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I might try something more waterproof on the top panels - though it might limit drying more. Normal Sunbrella water repellency is not adequate to resist a pool of water when new. Waterproof fabric will leak some at the seams. However, even if completely waterproof, the zipper cannot be, and if even it could be, now I'd have a pool on top of the sailcover rather than in the sail. That is preferable, but certainly not idea. It's like building a house with a flat roof - you must have perfect faith in the roof membrane or it will leak (and they all do eventually). Vs. a high peaked roof which will reliably shed water even if made of thatch, palm fronds, or whatever. I would prefer not to fight gravity, it is too dependable and relentless.

My second cartoon above is similar to what NavyDoc is talking about, a secondary means of keeping the top peaked and the zipper at the very top. It seems like it would be automatic in use. But I don't know what I don't know about it, till I build it I guess.
 

Schnick

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Vancouver, BC
My 2 cents:

Just make the sides of the stack pack larger, and eliminate the top flaps completely. Have the zippers sewn right up against the rods, and maybe make the rods a bit more flexible. You would then zip the rods right up against each other, and they would naturally form a peak? Sort of a double ridge pole?

Additionally, if you yould design it to remove one rod completely, you would then have a single ridge pole...
 

DDW

Super Anarchist
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The worry there is it might be difficult to zip. The lazyjacks have to terminate at the battens - at least they all seem to so the vote is in - and the jacks and weight of the sail tend to pull them apart by maybe 0.5m. The existing pack has snap shackles that you do up between pairs of jacks, then run down against the battens to hold them closer while you zip up but still not a picnic with ~12 cm flaps each side. I might have the same issue with my secondary batten scheme though maybe less, as in theory the mini-jacks wouldn't be carrying any weight except for the pack flaps.

Keep the thoughts coming - given infinite time and money I'd build 5 or 10 of these ideas and report back. The but the labor and cost of materials is significant, >$500 just for the Sunbrella alone. Also just getting it on and off the boat is about a day's labor, so even mods are costly. The existing Doyle Stackpack had to be remanufactured twice before it was really useable. Hoping to avoid the obvious pitfalls through collective wisdom.....
 

Marcjsmith

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Washington DC
Water will surely leak through that, anything that hits the top surface is potentially going in the sail unless there is sufficient aft slope to shed it aft 25' before it can flow sideways 4". I don't think all the water comes through the zipper, it is perfectly capable of soaking through the Sunbrella or stitching.
No doubt some water is getting through the stiches and through the zipper flap. I did use seam tape so the stiched holes are some what snug. And unless you throw on a waterproof zipper. There is no real way to stop water.

It’s relentless. If will find a way. My foot is only a midge more that 14’ But when I cinch up the jacks. I end up with a nice slope.

I’ve not have any pooled water on the sails or inside the pack. Doesn’t mean it’s not happening just that water is figuring it out and not being a problem. Ymmv

I did half a season with lazy jacks and conventional cover before going with a stack pack.

Full season the stack. There are times that I miss the conventional cover but they are few.
 

Max Rockatansky

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re: zip facilitation, see if you can find details on the Mack Sails’ MACK PACK which has a clever zip arrangement involving line and a couple of tiny turning blocks

my thought re raising the boom was that you would stow in normal position and then use topping lift to raise/lower the end once you’re at the dock?
 

DDW

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No topping lift, square head sail. Boom is controlled by inverted hydraulic vang, range of motion is limited. All the way up drains some of the water, but not all - there is always a low point aft of the battslide stack almost no matter how high you get it. All the way down not enough aft slope. On the mizzen (similar problem but better solutions because it is small) the boom can be lifted enough, but that makes it quite high, same issue with the battslide stack.

I think I've seen the Mack pack zipper arrangement, it isn't so much reaching it as getting the two sides close enough together that the zipper can actually work.
 

DDW

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I've got the old cover powerwashed to a lighter shade of mildew green. It had to be cut off the sail (or rather the sail cut off of it). One simplification of the Doyle system is that being sewn to the sail, the tack and clew ring are webbed right onto it (and the sail) so you don't have to think about how to secure the pack to the boom.

For those with non-Doyle packs, what works best for this: Tie off the fore and aft end of the pack to the sail? Tie it to the boom? I have a track on the boom, originally the Doyle sail and pack had slides in this track. This was a huge PITA to deal with when bending the sail on, and it became apparent that the sail didn't like it either when set so we cut them off. But with a separate pack, might I want to attach the pack via the slides?
 

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