Grabbler
Grabbler
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Fixed for ya.
ps The Hobie Class Association has vehemently opposed its inclusion in the Olympics for decades, they really like to run their own show.
paul henderson on the olympics
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ps The Hobie Class Association has vehemently opposed its inclusion in the Olympics for decades, they really like to run their own show.
johnnysaint
Super Anarchist
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If you were able to get into sailing, some of those people who are famous just for being famous, such as Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, etc then sailing would be the most watched sport in the Olympics.
Steveromagnino
Super Anarchist
Kites no matter the format will struggle in sub 6 knots same as formula windsurfers. If they have day after day of no sailing as would have happened in china in light conditions they are being treated differently to the other sailing sports. They will also need multiple kites for different wind conditions and at a guess in light conditions it will massively favour certain body weights. Equipment choice allows customising but olympics likes od stuff.
The only non subjective format would be some sort of course race or boardercross maybe.
The jumps that kiters do are (to me) not elegant, not tv friendly (we don't see it on prime time despite several pro tours), and difficult to judge-summer olympics aren't that big on subjective sports anyhow. This so called extreme sport still has very low take up rates compared to say snowboarding or mountain biking and the industry is going through the same sort of consolidation seen in snowboarding in the late 90s and at a guess the big growth spurt in kiting is finished already in developed countries, maybe we will see continued growth in some developing countries.
So how this can make it 'extreme' I have no idea. The extreme bits are speed and surf. Maybe course racing.
Kiting is best done in a pro tour with visits to surfing spots worldwide. Not sure it is any better than windsurfing for olympics and given course racing for kites is in its infancy equipment wise as cheesy says, its too early to consider.
The only non subjective format would be some sort of course race or boardercross maybe.
The jumps that kiters do are (to me) not elegant, not tv friendly (we don't see it on prime time despite several pro tours), and difficult to judge-summer olympics aren't that big on subjective sports anyhow. This so called extreme sport still has very low take up rates compared to say snowboarding or mountain biking and the industry is going through the same sort of consolidation seen in snowboarding in the late 90s and at a guess the big growth spurt in kiting is finished already in developed countries, maybe we will see continued growth in some developing countries.
So how this can make it 'extreme' I have no idea. The extreme bits are speed and surf. Maybe course racing.
Kiting is best done in a pro tour with visits to surfing spots worldwide. Not sure it is any better than windsurfing for olympics and given course racing for kites is in its infancy equipment wise as cheesy says, its too early to consider.
MB Sailing
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Dawg, Interesting comments from Henderson. As I recall the only "Gold Medal" for Canada was a Great Personality, Paul Tingley.. That was in the 2.4 Paralympics, did I mention Paul is the OPEN WORLD CHAMPION TOO..
Henderson, " THE POPE', probably would like to rethink these statements.
MB
willsailforfood
Anarchist
Spoken like someone who's never sailed a Star.
The reality is that sailing is not failing in the US because of the boats, the problems are the result of a complete lack of strategic vision for our sport by the people who proport to run it. Look at France where individual incomes (and disposable income) has traditionally been a fraction of what they are in the US. The sport is thriving. Same in other countries.
If we want to address the core problem facing our sport in North America we need to stop looking at every fancy new boat that someone dreams up as the solution and get to the real problem. As someone who sails globally I can assure you that a little actual perspective might be a good place to start.
That said, Henderson's comments seem completely reasonable. Preserve the Star and ditch the windsurfers for kiteboarding. I also agree with his comments on the Finn, there's nothing even close to a suitable replacement.
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Why have a Keel Boat that requires you to hike like that? I thought the whole point of keel boats was you do not have to hike??
You hike on dinghies not keel boats.
And don't show me photos of idiots on M24's killing themselves. Those rules need to be tightened up.
Henderson is changing his tune quite a bit here. Last time the Star was threatened with Olympic expulsion PH was all for it. What has changed?
One thing is the increasing professionalism of the sport, and here's where you have to be careful not to blink or you'll miss it. It's not the sailors it's the coaches, MNA "authorities" and all the other hanger's on to any serious program (including "yachting journalists"). They need the Olympics as much or more than the sailors. I offer as proof the fact that non-Olympic classes still have their devotee sailors, but they rarely have the other appurtenances described above.
The Star, while not "modern" in many respects, is a very interesting riddle to solve, but more importantly to professional sailing administrators, it is the bridge from the dingys to the big league big boats. Check out any America's Cup or MedCup program and they're thick with Star Sailors. Star success on your resume is a leg up on the step up in those leagues - for the sailors AND the coaches. I'm not saying laser sailors don't get there, but the Stars are over-represented. The sailors will find their way to whatever boat you chose, but the coaches et.al. need the cache of the Star for their professional ambitions.
One thing is the increasing professionalism of the sport, and here's where you have to be careful not to blink or you'll miss it. It's not the sailors it's the coaches, MNA "authorities" and all the other hanger's on to any serious program (including "yachting journalists"). They need the Olympics as much or more than the sailors. I offer as proof the fact that non-Olympic classes still have their devotee sailors, but they rarely have the other appurtenances described above.
The Star, while not "modern" in many respects, is a very interesting riddle to solve, but more importantly to professional sailing administrators, it is the bridge from the dingys to the big league big boats. Check out any America's Cup or MedCup program and they're thick with Star Sailors. Star success on your resume is a leg up on the step up in those leagues - for the sailors AND the coaches. I'm not saying laser sailors don't get there, but the Stars are over-represented. The sailors will find their way to whatever boat you chose, but the coaches et.al. need the cache of the Star for their professional ambitions.
cosmicsedso
Super Anarchist
Having reigned as 'Pope" during the last Olympic classes debacle I suppose its obvious ISAF think PH will just endorse their 'new' scheme.
PH exposed his ignorance of the sport during that debacle and also showed his utter contempt for the good folk out there who challenged him.
History will show that PH and all the other windbags at ISAF only ever support what is good for themselves.
Hence the Star and the Finn have survived over the years. Its all about numbers people.
The good of the sport be damned, they just want to be in charge!
rant over
PH exposed his ignorance of the sport during that debacle and also showed his utter contempt for the good folk out there who challenged him.
History will show that PH and all the other windbags at ISAF only ever support what is good for themselves.
Hence the Star and the Finn have survived over the years. Its all about numbers people.
The good of the sport be damned, they just want to be in charge!
rant over
johnnysaint
Super Anarchist
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You seem to know what you're talking about. Could you tell us exactly what "all the other windbags at ISAF" do get for being on the various committees they are on? There is no money paid to them in the form of wages. Do the Finn & Star supporters give them money under the counter? Bribes? Do they give them a Finn or a Star? Maybe supply hookers? The "windbags" certainly put a lot of time & effort into doing what they do - often at their own expense.
cosmicsedso
Super Anarchist
i'm thinking power hungry control freaks cash not required
its not hard to understand really
If the idea is to have events selected first and then consider equipment later then how about:
(1) Men's singlehanded
(2) Women's singlehanded
(3) Men's doublehanded
(4) Women's doublehanded
(5) Men's multihull
(6) Women's multihull
(7) Men's keelboat
(8) Women's keelboat
(9) Men's sailboard
(10) Women's sailboard.
Equal for men and women with a good range of events. All the other discussion is then about equipment.
(1) Men's singlehanded
(2) Women's singlehanded
(3) Men's doublehanded
(4) Women's doublehanded
(5) Men's multihull
(6) Women's multihull
(7) Men's keelboat
(8) Women's keelboat
(9) Men's sailboard
(10) Women's sailboard.
Equal for men and women with a good range of events. All the other discussion is then about equipment.
dogwatch
Super Anarchist
That's right. I admit it. Those various stints I've spent on club and class committees were all about my insatiable lust for power, glorious power. Today we write up the minutes of the sub-committee working party but tomorrow we march on Moscow!
Except, if you wanted a bit of consistency, those aren't the ISAF recognized disciplines of sailing. Those are all fleet racing events with an equipment choice added.
The ISAF recognized disciplines of sailing are more like fleet racing, team racing, match racing, speed sailing and offshore sailing.
The closest you're going to get to representing offshore racing with in the constraints of the Olympics is the multi day raid. For the speed sailing just set a course favorable for the fastest times. Forget any rule 42 bollocks and leave it open for the duration of the games. Fastest time wins
OK team racing is huge in only a handful of countries (though they seem to like it in Japan!) and fleet racing is a huge part of the sport. So may the only concession would be more fleet racing at the expense of team racing. For my money team racing is a natural for the 21st century Olympics. It requires small maneuverable boats that mean light weight crews that has meant it's a natural for mixed sailing. And if none existent kite course racing is being considered... So May be Mixed team racing and 1 extra fleet racing discipline would be a compromise no one except the Finn crowd would entertain.
Equipment
Fleet racing ... That has to first off mean selecting the current ultimate course racing machine out there. It takes the body type to sail it it takes and you fit the second choice around that. A cat is used else where (sorry). So that leaves a crap shoot between a skiff and Moth.
I'd pick the 49er and Moth and beef up the 49er even more if it's not felt to be currently on the edge of what's sailable. If that's not enough consideration of 'access' then 49er and Laser Radial.
Trickier choice for the women. Is the Moth a bit heavy weight? Would you compromise what I said about ultimate course racing machine by sizing the womens skiff to put the Laser Radial in as a heavy weight option?
Match racing ... keelboat, same hull for both, different rigs for men and women. Make it something that requires grunt and all tweeky if you must, getting round the course fast is still what match racing is all about. It has to be supplied equipment though and I would announce the basic parameters well ahead but the decision on the boats it's self left till the absolute last minute needed to build them ready for the opening ceremony and wouldn't let any of the competitors sail them before hand.
Speed sailing ... kites have it at the moment
Offshore ... has to be a cat
So that makes my selection:
1) Mens fleet racing (heavy weight) - 49er
2) Womens fleet racing (light weight) - skiff
3) Mens fleet racing (light weight) - Laser radial
4) Womens fleet racing (heavy weight) - Laser radial
5) Mens match racing - Keelboat
6) Womens match racing - Keelboat
7) Mens speed sailing - Kite
8) Womens speed sailing - Kite
9) Mens endurance/offshore - Cat
10) Womens endurance/offshore - Cat
...
but I'd be half tempted to put 3&4 as team racing
...
The pathway to pro agenda for coaches and sailors is more than adequately addressed by the skiff and match racing. The Star lobby know that, nebcy why 'format' has suddenly become a third thing to vote on latter again (and other such bullshit)
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Woofa Woofa
Member
KIting may be a "water" sport, but it certainly isn't a "sailing" sport. It has more in common with wakeboarding (and arguably parasailing) than it does with sailing. As such, it should be considered as a separate entity and boxed-up with all of the other demonstration sports under consideration.
I'm making this comment not as a die-hard traditional sailor who is resistant to change but as someone who makes a living from action sports and am feeling a bit of the "here we go again...", re: the visceral skiing vs snowboarding / waterskiing vs. wakeboarding debates over the last decade+. Figured I'd get my $0.02 in now, while the topic is still young...
So, here goes...
Skiing and snowboarding share more similarities than the fact that they both happen on snow, on a hill. The fundamentals are similar and the disciplines mirror each other in gates, freestyle, and 'cross events. Likewise in cycling - road, crit, mtb and bmx may all be very different disciplines, but the fundamentals of the equipment are the same...take 2 legs and spin a crank to make 2 wheels turn.
There is no comparison between sending tricks in kiting and sailing courses in boats. Or in using a sail to propel a board down a similarly laid-out course.
And any arguments that kiting will attract people into sailing are pretty much off the mark. Kiting - culturally - appeals more to the wakeboard, surfing, stand-up paddle-boarding and jaded windsurfing crowd in that it provides a low-cost way to have some shits and giggles on the water. These activities are where any participation crossover is going happen. It won't happen with kiters suddenly getting a jones for Lasers or keelboats. Snowboarding re-invigorated skiing at a time it needed to be brought back to life. Eventually the two disciplines met in the middle. And it was a good thing. Kiting provides ski and snowboard shops something else to sell in summer more than it provides the sport and industry of sailing with any benefit.
So, not beating up on kiting - just take it out of discussions about sailing. The two are mutually exclusive...
I'm making this comment not as a die-hard traditional sailor who is resistant to change but as someone who makes a living from action sports and am feeling a bit of the "here we go again...", re: the visceral skiing vs snowboarding / waterskiing vs. wakeboarding debates over the last decade+. Figured I'd get my $0.02 in now, while the topic is still young...
So, here goes...
Skiing and snowboarding share more similarities than the fact that they both happen on snow, on a hill. The fundamentals are similar and the disciplines mirror each other in gates, freestyle, and 'cross events. Likewise in cycling - road, crit, mtb and bmx may all be very different disciplines, but the fundamentals of the equipment are the same...take 2 legs and spin a crank to make 2 wheels turn.
There is no comparison between sending tricks in kiting and sailing courses in boats. Or in using a sail to propel a board down a similarly laid-out course.
And any arguments that kiting will attract people into sailing are pretty much off the mark. Kiting - culturally - appeals more to the wakeboard, surfing, stand-up paddle-boarding and jaded windsurfing crowd in that it provides a low-cost way to have some shits and giggles on the water. These activities are where any participation crossover is going happen. It won't happen with kiters suddenly getting a jones for Lasers or keelboats. Snowboarding re-invigorated skiing at a time it needed to be brought back to life. Eventually the two disciplines met in the middle. And it was a good thing. Kiting provides ski and snowboard shops something else to sell in summer more than it provides the sport and industry of sailing with any benefit.
So, not beating up on kiting - just take it out of discussions about sailing. The two are mutually exclusive...
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dogwatch
Super Anarchist
If it's wind-propelled movement of a person on the water, it's sailing. The demographics being different doesn't stop it being sailing. Low crossover with sailors in other branches of sailing doesn't stop it being sailing. The shops that sell the equipment being different to traditional sailing ones doesn't stop it being sailing. Exactly the same remarks are true of windsurfing and nobody disputes that is sailing.
Whether kiteboard course-racing is ready to be an Olympic sport is another question entirely and IMO it is not.
cosmicsedso
Super Anarchist
or in your case delusions of grandeur. I'm also a long serving member of our sport and I would never denigrate you or your mates efforts at club/class level.
I WAS TALKING ABOUT WINDBAGS AT ISAF. Is that you?
The Paul Hendersons and Jerome Fels and Goran Petersons etc etc not the minions like you and me who make the sport actually work.
Basically the same guys who seem to have condoned that disgraceful race committee performance at the AC now I come to think of it.
And as for the downturn worldwide in sailing..... keep fiddling you old windbags!
Presuming Ed
Super Anarchist
IMHO, if it's exploiting the velocity difference between wind and some other medium by the use of a lift generating device, then it's sailing. Kiting is sailing. Land sailing is sailing. Iceboating is sailing. Using a wing sail still means you're sailing.
This is sailing:
(Oh, and the IOC doesn't do demonstration sports at the Olympics any more.)
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skyywalker
New member
Can probably someone explain to me what this CONFIDENTIAL in the initial post means... ?
And, do I see it right, it was originally posted on 18th of Octovber ? Interesting that it comes out NOW...
And, do I see it right, it was originally posted on 18th of Octovber ? Interesting that it comes out NOW...
SC Finnster
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There is no reason to even talk about kite sailing until it is picked up by the X-Games or something similar. Snow boarding came into the Olympics after it was widely covered on television. Adding kite boarding, or keeping skiffs fopr that matter, adds nothing to TV coverage for the sport of sailing.
