Pay to play - amateur racing

[10thTonner]

 

[zenmasterfred]

WTF, pay to play?  NFW!

 

[fastyacht]

Man o man o man! I a so grateful to be a European. I am so blessed, so privileged, so free and still so secure and I didnt even DO anything for it. I was just born here. It makes me shudder just thinking about it.

And if you are a Norwegian eurpin you can also celebrate blowing an extra $800 as a working stiff justy for being a railmeat er I mean , trimmer;-P

 

[Jono]

In NZ you bring your own lunch and beer. And usually replace the winch handle you threw overboard.

 

[Left Shift]

Here's a few tales that should give owners shivers. 

• I knew a crew that was essentially a boat bum,  with an iffy income and no health insurance.  I knew he had a bad back  and one day he slid down the companionway and ended up on the cabin sole allegedly in excruciating pain.  A month later he  had a microdiscectomy which cost $9,000, paid for by the owner's liability insurance.  I was in the cabin and witnessed the "fall", obviously staged if you ask me.  A man willing to take desperate measures in desperate times.
  
• And another "no visible means of support" crew who over the course of a season or two chummed up with the female owner and became the boat maintenance officer,  ostensibly was a sneakaboard on the boat for months, gained access to her boat credit card and gradually ramped up questionable charges on the card, essentially living expenses.  I wasn't privy to the end of it all but apparently he saw judgement day coming and racked up the card using ATMs over the course of a week or so, then disappeared.  Later we learned he'd moved back to his turf on the East Coast, drove her loaner car there and abandoned it.  Weasel.
  
• Then there's the tale of Mark(?) XXX,  backup crewmember on Conner's '92('87?) campaign, who lived on his B-32 at LBYC(ABYC?) post AC.  Got caught stealing checks from the Club and subsequently prosecuted, result I can't recall.  Crook.
  

These guys were (are?) all top notch sailors, just didn't connect with how to support their avocation,  and were willing to behave badly to continue living the boating life.  So owners, beware of volunteer crew (even with sailing skills cred) who have no real jobs, no permanent address, no medical/liability insurance and seem way to eager to become your best friend.

One final tale, me.  I was crewing on an Andrews 26M (elliptical keel Mod)  in LA returning from a windy harbor race, greasy decks, typical chop LA harbor, when I slipped in the cockpit and caught my shin underneath that nasty mid-cockpit traveller  AND26s have, and ripped my shin to the bare  bone, lotsa blood, one gal crew threw up witnessing it.  Booze was involved.  Anywhoo, a trip to the emergency room for mattress sutures, followed a few weeks later by an infection, debridement, a few sessions of IV antibiotics and all was good, still have a cool scar.  Ultimately a $3,000 Med bill.  Stacy, the owner,  was  devastated concerning the whole affair and monitored my progress often,  saying over and over if I needed any help fixing it he was there.  I had to keep reassuring him it was my mistake,  whatever happens I'll pay for it myself,  I had a job and insurance so I wasn't in dire straits.

Seen the same thing concerning accidents where crew was moderately injured, a bowman whose ear was half ripped off when the topping lift failed, and a broken shoulder during a jibe when the main trimmer got caught up in the mainsheet on a CRUZ52.  Both times the owner was majorly shook up, but calmed down when the victims said "Nope, my mistake, not your fault, I'm insured and will take care of the bills."  As owners it's worth casting a jaundiced eye on new crew out of the blue,  sure a ride or two but then get to know them, check their life situation, etc.  Free crew of unknown provenance is risky.

Concerning the thread subject,  I've never paid for a ride.  Sure, I'll help with expenses on out of town races (my pie hole has to be filled whether I'm out of town or not),  pay my share of the booze at club bars, show up with water, ice or a 24 pack if that's what we need, chipped in for a battle flag or a new halyard as a gift to the owner post season for letting me crew on his magnificent boat for a year.  But *never* an up front cash payment, that's dancing with the commercial situation where the USCG rules apply.  I have chipped in to have a pro MIR coach the boat for a regatta, money well spent concerning my development as a sailor.  But that's money going the other way.

Anyway, if you're a good sailor (my rating is 4 on a scale of 5) you should never have to pay for a ride (or even be asked to do so); more common is other boats trying to steal you for their boats, which is an option if their boat is bigger, faster and much grander with bennies like crew apparel, participation in major races, crew girls, etc.  Yep, I am a whore and will sign up for the best ride I can get.  But I'll never pay for it.
 

This is a bizarre post.  

Random horror story incidents from decades back?

Crew rating?

Crew girls?

The only thing in this post to give an owner the “shivers” is accidentally having this guy on your crew.

 

[float drop]

Should the crew contribute to the sailing coach cost?

Off topic

I find it more disruptive when there is a mix of Pro (paid to sail) and Amateurs on board.

 

[NORBowGirl]

Like most of the developed world, you are lucky enough to be raised in a country that actually gives a shit about healthcare and how it affects it's citizens daily lives.  Most Americans will never know how it feels to not be burdened with that albatross.   The fact that you and your countrymen would never think about suing if there was an issue speaks volumes and unfortunately, until calmer heads prevail in Washington, there is no way in hell we will reach that mindset in my lifetime.  

You were on your way with Obamacare, but I guess that's gone now? Such a shame. I think that many americans mean that they don't want to pay taxes to fund another citizens health issues. What they forget, is that they would basically pay for their OWN care - cause eventually they will need it. 

 

[Couta]

Having been around for a while, I find that the best situation is to share the smarts.....get on a boat with an owner that's keen to progress.....bring on board a coupla mates who are similarly experienced.....you and ya mates tune up the other crew members and show that the boat has potential...and after a few weeks, step away and let the vacuum get filled with others keen to be on a "winning boat". Rinse and repeat! (ohh and bring a few beers....)

This sport is fun...and it's more fun when you're meeting new people and sharing the smarts (and a few beers)...do it humbly and do it right and everyone has a better day on the water!   

I try and do this with a new boat every season or so....and as long as the "membership nazis" don't fuck it up by demanding that I pay a day fee or join their club....it all works out pretty well.

 

[NORBowGirl]

And if you are a Norwegian eurpin you can also celebrate blowing an extra $800 as a working stiff justy for being a railmeat er I mean , trimmer;-P

Hey, I'm pit now and the engine of it all - nothing happens unless I do my job   I consider it paying to have a LOT of fun together with my team. 

 

[IPLore]

You were on your way with Obamacare, but I guess that's gone now? Such a shame.

Nope its still here.

Two things have tripled since Obamacare came into effect:

1. Health Insurance Premiums

2. The share prices of Health Insurance companies.

The only piece that has been revoked is that it is no longer compulsory to have health insurance.  Which basically means that we create a population of uninsured people gambling on their good health . 

Rest assured the extra tax originally designed to fund the program remains in place. 

We may not have the best healthcare system in the world but hey we have a medical malpractice bar that is the envy of lawyers everywhere :wacko: and a malpractice insurance industry second to none, funded by health insurance premiums and the OBC taxes .   These are job opportunities that simply dont exist in Europe.

 

[EYESAILOR]

Nope its still here.

Two things have tripled since Obamacare came into effect:

1. Health Insurance Premiums

2. The share prices of Health Insurance companies.

The only piece that has been revoked is that it is no longer compulsory to have health insurance.  Which basically means that we create a population of uninsured people gambling on their good health . 

Rest assured the extra tax originally designed to fund the program remains in place. 

We may not have the best healthcare system in the world but hey we have a medical malpractice bar that is the envy of lawyers everywhere :wacko: and a malpractice insurance industry second to none, funded by health insurance premiums and the OBC taxes .   These are job opportunities that simply dont exist in Europe.

I thought we agreed, no more healthcare politics on this thread?

 

[IPLore]

I thought we agreed, no more healthcare politics on this thread?

Sorry. Yeah.

Poor timing for NorBow to mention health insurance and obamacare at this time of year when we all got re-enrollment letters in our mailboxes last week and once again increased premiums and more restrictions on benefits.

I will shut up.

 

[shaggy]

Nope its still here.

Two things have tripled since Obamacare came into effect:

1. Health Insurance Premiums

2. The share prices of Health Insurance companies.

The only piece that has been revoked is that it is no longer compulsory to have health insurance.  Which basically means that we create a population of uninsured people gambling on their good health . 

Rest assured the extra tax originally designed to fund the program remains in place. 

We may not have the best healthcare system in the world but hey we have a medical malpractice bar that is the envy of lawyers everywhere :wacko: and a malpractice insurance industry second to none, funded by health insurance premiums and the OBC taxes .   These are job opportunities that simply dont exist in Europe.

PA I know, but I haven't been following the thread.  but frankly my friend, if the repubs did not stonewall everything they tried to do with O care life would be happy...  It was never meant to be the end all be all of healthcare.  It was supposed to be a jumping off point.  When it got gutted by the repubs and the rules changed, well, things went to crap.  

 

[Mark Set]

You were on your way with Obamacare, but I guess that's gone now? Such a shame. I think that many americans mean that they don't want to pay taxes to fund another citizens health issues. What they forget, is that they would basically pay for their OWN care - cause eventually they will need it. 

HA! Obamacare gone? Nope, it just made everything worse and more expensive. I'm glad your system works well but when the US government gets involved things usually get worse.

 

[KC375]

Sorry. Yeah.

Poor timing for NorBow to mention health insurance and obamacare at this time of year when we all got re-enrollment letters in our mailboxes last week and once again increased premiums and more restrictions on benefits.

I will shut up.

And that's sort of the point...NorBow would have no idea about those timing things 'cause healthcare (or at least insurance coverage) is just not an issue where she lives, nor in most of the developed world. Really it's pretty much a USA only thing...which of course makes it amusing to the rest of the world when certain democrats are accused of being radical for suggesting an approach the rest of the world has adopted that produces better results.

Meanwhile the rest of the world thinks the US is the radical for insisting on perpetuating an approach that is the world's most expensive while at best mid tier in performance...that's radical.

Don’t get me wrong there is not a simple solution to the US healthcare problem – and merely adjustment to the insurance market place won’t come close to fixing it...and some of the “obvious” solutions become less obvious as you dig into them...but a simplistic, overly partisan, emotionally charged, debate highly shaped by many parties with deep commercial interests...well that doesn’t seem to be working.

The US has really lead / shown the world in many things – including some medical treatments – but overall society wide delivery of quality healthcare is something the US might look around and ask who is doing it better, why is it better, how do I get some of that?

 

[Bump-n-Grind]

Should the crew contribute to the sailing coach cost?

Off topic

I find it more disruptive when there is a mix of Pro (paid to sail) and Amateurs on board.

if it's a purely coaching occasion, everyone aboard should split the cost of the coach.

(and let me clarify right here, this is a coach, not a hired gun for an event. his job was to spend a weekend with us all out on the boat in a non-race scenario and get us spun up for the upcoming season.)

My experience with this has been (as an owner) the first few times I hired a coach when I paid the tab, the crew were not invested and therefore, to them it was just another boat ride/day on the water and it really didn't help us much.

my club used to do a  thing in the spring where we'd invite reps from North, Q, Doyle and whoever else was around at the time to the club on a Saturday in mid march to pitch their latest and great, do a Q&A and then come out on the water with whoever brought their boat to the club that day and run some little coaching sessions. It was at one of these events that I met a guy from Quantum who was to become our team coach for several years. His agreed to work with us, if and only if, everyone in the crew split the costs evenly.  This was to ensure that everyoine was invested in this process. he had a questionnaire for us to fill out that outlined our experience and what our expectations were for the season.

it also helped to establish everyone's level of commitment.

we had a chalk talk for an hour each morning. and then a few minutes were spent on skills development for every position on the boat.  Then we'd head out on the water for 6-8 hours of drills doing everything we'd gone over ashore or on the boat at the dock. This was real coaching, not some overpaid asshole showing off about what a great sailor he is or braggin about the regattas he'd won.  at the end of each day, we had an hour long debrief after the boat got cleaned up... if anyone decided they had to leave early, the coach would disinvite them from the crew. Again establishing level of commitment.  This was skills coaching, nothing to do with tactics. By the end of sunday we could go around a w/l course without much converstaion. The crew was starting to develop some race course sense and presence and could tell ahead of time what was about to happen and would be ready for just about anything.

I'm not the the greatest sailor on the planet. I got into the sport relatively late in life. I struggled in  the back half of the whatever fleet I was in for several years until we hired this guy. If we were 7th out 10 boats in our fleet the season before, I'd guess we moved up to about 4th for the season the first year we had him work with us. He did not race with us. He got us ready to race. and we all shared the cost of it.

 

[IPLore]

if it's a purely coaching occasion, everyone aboard should split the cost of the coach.

(and let me clarify right here, this is a coach, not a hired gun for an event. his job was to spend a weekend with us all out on the boat in a non-race scenario and get us spun up for the upcoming season.)

My experience with this has been (as an owner) the first few times I hired a coach when I paid the tab, the crew were not invested and therefore, to them it was just another boat ride/day on the water and it really didn't help us much.

my club used to do a  thing in the spring where we'd invite reps from North, Q, Doyle and whoever else was around at the time to the club on a Saturday in mid march to pitch their latest and great, do a Q&A and then come out on the water with whoever brought their boat to the club that day and run some little coaching sessions. It was at one of these events that I met a guy from Quantum who was to become our team coach for several years. His agreed to work with us, if and only if, everyone in the crew split the costs evenly.  This was to ensure that everyoine was invested in this process. he had a questionnaire for us to fill out that outlined our experience and what our expectations were for the season.

it also helped to establish everyone's level of commitment.

we had a chalk talk for an hour each morning. and then a few minutes were spent on skills development for every position on the boat.  Then we'd head out on the water for 6-8 hours of drills doing everything we'd gone over ashore or on the boat at the dock. This was real coaching, not some overpaid asshole showing off about what a great sailor he is or braggin about the regattas he'd won.  at the end of each day, we had an hour long debrief after the boat got cleaned up... if anyone decided they had to leave early, the coach would disinvite them from the crew. Again establishing level of commitment.  This was skills coaching, nothing to do with tactics. By the end of sunday we could go around a w/l course without much converstaion. The crew was starting to develop some race course sense and presence and could tell ahead of time what was about to happen and would be ready for just about anything.

I'm not the the greatest sailor on the planet. I got into the sport relatively late in life. I struggled in  the back half of the whatever fleet I was in for several years until we hired this guy. If we were 7th out 10 boats in our fleet the season before, I'd guess we moved up to about 4th for the season the first year we had him work with us. He did not race with us. He got us ready to race. and we all shared the cost of it.

Can you imagine inviting a group of friends to stay at your ski house and then when you all agree that it would be great to hire an instructor for a day to go back country and hone those deep powder skills ......after the session, would all the skiers look to the home owner to pick up the tab for the instructor?

When I get invited to: stay at someone ski house/sail on someone's boat and we organize a ski instructor/sailing coach......I sure hope I have the good grace to contribute my share.

It would be different if I was a highly accomplished skier with regular appearances on Warren Miller and I came back country with you while you had an instructor along with you focused on you. In the same way, if you had a sailing coach working on the owner's driving skills and tactical coaching that would not be something to ask the crew if they were interested in.  But if its an opportunity for each crew position to get coaching, and they voluntarily want to get the coaching....then a great opportunity. 

 

[axolotl]

This is a bizarre post.  

Random horror story incidents from decades back?

Crew rating?

Crew girls?

The only thing in this post to give an owner the “shivers” is accidentally having this guy on your crew.

Yep, I went overboard concerning what can happen to owners concerning crew.  Maybe condense it to this?

"As owners it's worth casting a jaundiced eye on new crew out of the blue,  sure a ride or two but then get to know them, check their life situation, etc.  Free crew of unknown provenance is risky."

Fair enough? 

 

[Left Shift]

Yep, I went overboard concerning what can happen to owners concerning crew.  Maybe condense it to this?

"As owners it's worth casting a jaundiced eye on new crew out of the blue,  sure a ride or two but then get to know them, check their life situation, etc.  Free crew of unknown provenance is risky."

Fair enough? 

Very fair.

 

[bosundog]

Circling back around to this, and perhaps this may be a new topic, but where are y'all (skippers/owners) finding these dedicated crew?  In my area dedicated crew are scarce as hens teeth.  Most just want to chalk up trying something new for a bit, or join a bucket list regatta/offshore race but won't commit to building up experience on a particular boat to get there on the local more bland races in trying conditions. I've had numerous people  want to join for something really big but won't put in the time  on a boat beforehand  to make it happen. Finding folks that really want to get involved  long-term and build a team are very rare.   this is why I was questioning the whole pay to play model.   but thinking about it after listening to all of your input maybe it makes sense, folks just want to pay, get their experience walk away and move on.