PHRF as a Handicap vs a Rating...

sailman

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Portsmouth, RI
do you think that an arms race at the bottom end of club level is a good way to encourge boats on the water giving crewing opportunities?

It will kill off racing for anyone who cannot afford new race sails and do all the things preparing a boat to be competitive, before it even hits the water. 
Do you race sailboats?

 

Spoonie

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Sydney
Like I said, Club racing is practice racing.  Under PHS, if your boat shows improvement, you get better results, which for a practice race sounds like a good thing.  It just sucks for top guys.  Most top guys don't really care that much about whether they win or not at club level as they have bigger fish to fry.  At our club at least, hanging around for the after race presentations is usually enough to go home with a prize.

 

sailman

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Portsmouth, RI
Yes, in a club that would probably lose half it's fleet if PHS was killed off. 

Aside from PHS, we also have IRC & AMS divisions for the more serious racers. Their results tend to be dominated by competitive designs with newish sails.
I would rather give up racing then submit to a PHS style system.  Learn to sail and improve your self and team.

 

The Dark Knight

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I would rather give up racing then submit to a PHS style system.  Learn to sail and improve your self and team.
How would the crew improve if the owners give up because their boat will never be competitive because of the boats design and the buckets of money needed to be spent to get it up to speed?

clubs need boats on the water to give crewing opportunities. 

You sound like the type of person who gives yachting a elitist reputation.

 

sailman

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Portsmouth, RI
How would the crew improve if the owners give up because their boat will never be competitive because of the boats design and the buckets of money needed to be spent to get it up to speed?

clubs need boats on the water to give crewing opportunities. 

You sound like the type of person who gives yachting a elitist reputation.
Why are you treating sailing different from every other team sport?

 

bgytr

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What if you have a few of the same type of boats out there but not enough of em to race one-design?  Does each boat have a different rating based on their performance?  What if one guys is consistently well in front of the other guys with the same boat- you give the good performing boat a different rating?

 

LionessRacing

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Myrtle Beach,
which other team sports can you buy your way to near the top?
Formula one?

All of the money spent on gear, won't by itself put you on the podium, but it can fix problems, and it certainly can rent talent that can get the properly equipped car/boat there.

We raced yesterday, and our RC had buggered back to France to visit family, now that travel restrictions were over. We defined  starting line between a fixed Daymark and a sea buoy, raced out to a sequence of ATON and took our own time crossing the start line on the way back.

The 2nd day of racing in over a year, and the new to boat crew struggling with the Mizzen, Mizzen staysail trim and a heavy boat in < 10 kts with good swells.

We had fun, losing initially to a lighter boat that was able to set a light spinnaker, and nearly grinding them down on the last leg as the wind came up and we close reached with genoa, main, mizzen staysail and mizzen.

 

sailman

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Portsmouth, RI
which other team sports can you buy your way to near the top?
I see plenty of boats out there that are well prepared and sometimes have pros on board that get beaten on a regular basis.  It is a cop out to use the "arms" race argument.  The preamble to all PHRF regions state in some form or another that all boats are to be race ready and in racing trim.  If you choose to race with old sails, cruising gear and an unfair/unclean bottom; that is your choice.  Penalizing those with talent, good teams and prepared boats hurts the sport.

 

The Dark Knight

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I see plenty of boats out there that are well prepared and sometimes have pros on board that get beaten on a regular basis.  It is a cop out to use the "arms" race argument.  The preamble to all PHRF regions state in some form or another that all boats are to be race ready and in racing trim.  If you choose to race with old sails, cruising gear and an unfair/unclean bottom; that is your choice.  Penalizing those with talent, good teams and prepared boats hurts the sport.
The best teams with the best boats get to win the best "trophies" which in Australia means winning IRC, ORC or AMS. So there is no penalty for those teams other than they probably won't win any PHS trophy, but they don't care about that. 

So why do you want to kill the race fleets? 

 

sailman

Super Anarchist
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Portsmouth, RI
The best teams with the best boats get to win the best "trophies" which in Australia means winning IRC, ORC or AMS. So there is no penalty for those teams other than they probably won't win any PHS trophy, but they don't care about that. 

So why do you want to kill the race fleets? 
I don’t, but penalizing skill, good teams and boat prep will certainly be detrimental

 

Spoonie

Anarchist
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Sydney
I don’t, but penalizing skill, good teams and boat prep will certainly be detrimental
To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish? 

You say that like you've tried it and seen your fleets massively diminished?  That's not the experience of Aus (and NZ?) 

We had maybe 70 or 80 boats on the water yesterday, in "winter" all racing phs. 

At a club level, the typical Sailor is quite variable in how they sail. Under phs If you sail better than your average, you win. If you keep sailing better than your average you keep winning. You win when you improve.  If you stop improving, you lose. What's the problem? 

But more over, as an unmeasured rating, it means anyone can bring a boat and start racing, without having everything measured, and know in the long run they will be treated relatively fairly.  One less chunk of beauracracy to deal with. 

 

sailman

Super Anarchist
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424
Portsmouth, RI
To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish? 

You say that like you've tried it and seen your fleets massively diminished?  That's not the experience of Aus (and NZ?) 

We had maybe 70 or 80 boats on the water yesterday, in "winter" all racing phs. 

At a club level, the typical Sailor is quite variable in how they sail. Under phs If you sail better than your average, you win. If you keep sailing better than your average you keep winning. You win when you improve.  If you stop improving, you lose. What's the problem? 

But more over, as an unmeasured rating, it means anyone can bring a boat and start racing, without having everything measured, and know in the long run they will be treated relatively fairly.  One less chunk of beauracracy to deal with. 
If it works for you, great. Keep it in AUS

 

The Dark Knight

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About PHRF from Wiki

PHRF handicaps are assigned by individuals or committees associated with specific fleets. Handicaps are assigned to a given production class considering predominant local conditions and the handicapper’s experience in handicapping similar boats. These ratings are based on observed performance and any requisite adjustments generally become evident after 5-10 races have been sailed. Scoring options include Time-on-Distance or Time-on-Time.
^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

An assumption that a rated boat is in Bristol racing condition - with a clean bottom, new sails, and an experienced crew. This assumption excludes those with less financial resources and sailing experience from the winners circle and discourages many boats from racing. PHRF shares this flaw with ALL sail racing rating systems, as those utilizing mathematical computation models also assume shapes are perfect, as designed - not worn, dirty, blown out, sagging, or deliberately altered.




To whom? The top Sailors who generally don't really care?  Or the guy who spends gobs of time and money chasing a better rating to win a club pickle dish?
Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.

 

Chucky

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Melbourne
About PHRF from Wiki

^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.
Hoppy, With your statement above, it appears you also do not understand how performance handicaps work! The statement above is more applicable to measurement based handicaps?

 

trt131

Super Anarchist
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About PHRF from Wiki

^^^^^^ It's funny that sailman mocks PHS about being a participation trophy, but PHRF is also a participation trophy as it is a subjective rating based on observations to create the base rating.

At least our serious IRC, AMS & ORC rating are based on measurements. 

Maybe sailman likes to impress people in the club by the PHRF rating of his boat, that he can't sail to. A falling PHS racing will leave him feeling embarrassed.
I think you might like to rethink that about AMS.  Maybe AMS is 'based' on measurement but what happens after that is the problem.

 
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