PHRF Question: Mixing Spin and Non-Spin Boats

[Pokey uh da LBC]

PHRF, our favorite subject...

Do non-spin offsets need to be called out in the NOR or SI in order for them to apply?

Or to ask it another way, should all boats use their standard (spin) rating, unless the race docs state otherwise?

 

[Peter Andersen]

If you are talking about one division including both spin and non spin boats, don't their certificates have their applicable ratings? But if this is what you are talking about, its not a serious enough race to worry about ratings. Back in the dark ages we used to just add 15 percent to non spin boat's ratings in a mixed fleet like this. It worked fine, no complaints for years. Until the eggheads got involved.

 

[DrewR]

I do not think mixing spin and non-spin boats in the same race was ever intended by PHRF. I believe NE-PHRF docs even says that the differential in ratings between the two are not to be used for this purpose. But it's been a while since I've been involved in PHRF as someone who ran a fleet and a large regatta. Back then I was told by someone associated with NE-PHRF 'just don't do it'. Here in NE it used to be 6 secs spin vs. non-spin which I was told was just an arbitrary number they used and it in no way reflected the potential differences in performance.

 

[barleymalt]

Different ways to handle this. Are the spin vs JAM (Jib and Main) consistent for the series, or do boats get to choose whether to sail spin or non spin per race?. If so, do they have to declare before the start of the race, or can they do so after?.

The combined fleet (spin and non spin) should be called out in the NOR, any of the specific situations above should be specified in the sailing instructions.

As for handicaps, hopefully those are spelled out by your PHRF region. I have seen 12 to 18 seconds per mile depending on the area and boats, it can be a mess if you have to do it. I don't think you can reasonably ask non spin competitors to use a spin rating, if that is what you are asking.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

I have seen this done both ways. I never ran them as one fleet with one set of results. I didn't even use the same course, light air dead downwind is not fun for the white sail fleet. They all used the same windward mark, but then the spin fleet came straight back and the non-spin fleet had a reaching mark and then a broad reach back.
Long ago I recall an RC that let you decide spin or non-spin at the start more or less and changed your rating accordingly. It was a bit odd IMHO.

 

[arcpix]

PHRF, our favorite subject...

Do non-spin offsets need to be called out in the NOR or SI in order for them to apply?

Or to ask it another way, should all boats use their standard (spin) rating, unless the race docs state otherwise?

PHRF MW provides both a Spin and Non Spin rating on each certificate. That said, it DOES NOT level the field. We have tried it in pursuit races with marginal success. Best to provide separate starts and scores for them both.

 

[BrightAyes]

and the responders forgot the most important statement: "friends don't let friends do PHRF". Now, if its the only game in town, or you're simply too lousy for one design, knock yourself out. Do expect to be permanently pissed-off at the cheater/winners who will anal-rape you over 3 seconds a mile like it mattered.

 

[Remodel]

I think it's generally a bad idea to mix the fleets. Years ago (too many to count) I sailed on an inland lake where there were only a dozen or so owners inclined to race. We'd get a pretty good turn out for 3 or 4 "major" regattas per year, but not so much for beercans and evening races in the summer. 10 seconds per mile was arbitrarily picked as a number to subtract from the spin boats' ratings. Thus a J24 would move from 171 to 161 for example.

This was abandoned after a few races because the penalty applied to the entire course both upwind and down, and the spin boats complained this was unfair. The JAM boats of course felt that 10 seconds was not nearly enough in the light winds in which we usually sailed. No one was happy and so the experiment ended.

 

[Somebody Else]

Ugh!
I am currently in the middle of a slowly playing screw-up where a boat sailed most of the season with a non-spinn rating even though they used a spinnaker. After rescoring the entire season with the new rating, the results only changed for 2 or 3 races out of 28 races and didn't change at all for the season. A lot of fuss over not very much.

 

[dacapo]

...............even if you give the non spin boats 24-27 seconds per mile, they'll still lose to the spinnaker boats (of course if there's any wind, as all boats drifts the same speed with the current)

 

[dacapo]

Ugh!
I am currently in the middle of a slowly playing screw-up where a boat sailed most of the season with a non-spinn rating even though they used a spinnaker. After rescoring the entire season with the new rating, the results only changed for 2 or 3 races out of 28 races and didn't change at all for the season. A lot of fuss over not very much.

most (not all) regions have no offset between the two ratings unless they are sprit boats......and even then the offset for most (not all) sprit boats is 6 sec.

 

[Varan]

Our club credits a spinnaker rated boat 18 s/nm if they register as non-spinnaker. In a series, they must register as one or the other.

 

[DrewR]

Ugh!
I am currently in the middle of a slowly playing screw-up where a boat sailed most of the season with a non-spinn rating even though they used a spinnaker. After rescoring the entire season with the new rating, the results only changed for 2 or 3 races out of 28 races and didn't change at all for the season. A lot of fuss over not very much.

I went thru something similar. I looked but I cannot find a protest appeal ruling that basically said, as I remember it, you cant rescore a series midway thru the series for this exact situation (and others). We had a boat that had mis stated on his cert app something and his rating went up. He notified me at the very last race of the series (Jun, July, and Aug We’d nights) and wanted the season rescored.

I inquired to the local PHRF people and the advice I got was no, with a citation from the appeals book. The rationale stated was most competitive boats sail with other boats ratings in mind and make decisions based on the ratings as they existed at the time. I know for me that was always true.

He was not happy and this solidified my PHRF exit plan.

 

[Jethrow]

... where a boat sailed most of the season with a non-spinn rating even though they used a spinnaker

Wouldn't this just be a series DSQ for the boat in question for sailing with non-rated equipment?

 

[Somebody Else]

Wouldn't this just be a series DSQ for the boat in question for sailing with non-rated equipment?

Technically: yes.
But this is Wednesday night beer cans (informally formal?) and we put in quite a lot of effort to be as inclusive as possible.

 

[barleymalt]

Technically: yes.
But this is Wednesday night beer cans (informally formal?) and we put in quite a lot of effort to be as inclusive as possible.

Another reason why the SIs and how they are worded is important.

 

[mal5033]

and the responders forgot the most important statement: "friends don't let friends do PHRF". Now, if its the only game in town, or you're simply too lousy for one design, knock yourself out. Do expect to be permanently pissed-off at the cheater/winners who will anal-rape you over 3 seconds a mile like it mattered.

condescend much?
Not everyone can exist in your elite sailing world (nor do they want to).
I am sure no one-design boat owners ever bitch about other one design boats in their fleet...
PHRF isn't perfect but it does allow unlike boats to go out and race.

 

[Parma]

Do non-spin offsets need to be called out in the NOR or SI in order for them to apply?

Yes.

If a boat decides to sail w/o a spin that's their decision, but scoring/classes need to be allowed for and decided upon up front.

Imagine if a boat was allowed to decide what rating they wanted to sail with at the last minute or even during a race; it has to be an option that is available and selected before the race.

 

[Alaris]

I would not want to race in a combined fleet. Having raced spin and non spin and watched level rated boats’ performance, I do not believe the two types of ratings can be fairly raced against each other.

 

[fboats]

condescend much?
Not everyone can exist in your elite sailing world (nor do they want to).
I am sure no one-design boat owners ever bitch about other one design boats in their fleet...
PHRF isn't perfect but it does allow unlike boats to go out and race.

One Design = Elite Sailing World

ROTFLMAO

Dude, you need to get out more and expand your sailing horizons.

Sad thing is, I have heard this before from PHRF stalwarts, even rating committee members.

PHRF is like scooters and fat chicks.....fun to play with, but expect your friends to laugh at you for riding one!