Somebody Else
a person of little consequence
You mean like Dennis Conner and America's Cup?
PHRF Question: Mixing Spin and Non-Spin Boats
- Thread starter Pokey uh da LBC
- Start date
You mean like Dennis Conner and America's Cup?
BrightAyes
Member
just be snarky's all. I too am a bottom-dwelling PHRF hack who's lived 40 years at the bottom of the fleet witnessing backroom BS deals where the monied owner gets a sweetheart from friends running PHRF committee. One design in a Snark beats PHRF in a Bennie 36.7, but for 90% of us PHRF is all there is...and that's sad fact.
BrightAyes
Member
Case in point: local Shock 35 wrangled a 90 rating locally while the national rating was 72. Of course it won more silver in 5 years than rest of the fleet together. How the hell does that happen in a real world?
Somebody Else
a person of little consequence
I should go back and explain that PHRF-NW assigned a spinnaker rating to the boat that had been racing all season with the non-spinnaker rating that could only be explained as "punitive." The rating went from 93 to 75.
Now, with the 93 rating, the boat did not run away with every race. Likewise, with 75, they did not lose every race. Indeed, after the races were rescored only 2 or 3 results changed FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR of 28 races. I've seen bigger deltas in Etchells races...
Now, with the 93 rating, the boat did not run away with every race. Likewise, with 75, they did not lose every race. Indeed, after the races were rescored only 2 or 3 results changed FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR of 28 races. I've seen bigger deltas in Etchells races...
Goodvibes
under the southern cross I stand ...
- 1,495
- 444
- Banned
- #26
Bullshit.
There is only one boat in every PHRF fleet that thinks it's a great system ... the winner. Everyone else calls bullshit, "we were robbed again".
I have won a 'blue ribbon' PHRF race, I enjoyed that, but was under no illusion that it meant we were the best boat. Maybe the best of our hull type. The conditions for the race suited us and we had no breakages or huge mistakes. I did not take it too seriously because of that, knowing that if we had say, less breeze, the results would have been different.
I also sailed one-design for many years for what in todays money would be $15K or less. The PHRF boat at $60K was the more expernsive one.
TJSoCal
Super Anarchist
I'm not sure that's my experience with PHRF. Usually there are a few boats that many in the fleet think have a gift rating and a few boats who think they have a crappy rating (although boats that think they have crappy ratings often either manage to get it changed or quit racing).
Sometimes PHRF wins are chalked up to the conditions on the day and "horses for courses". But I think the boats that are consistently at the top in most PHRF fleets are acknowledged to be well-prepared and well-sailed and win because of that. Poorly prepared and poorly sailed PHRF boats usually can't sail well enough even to a gift rating to win consistently. And folks that have the wrong boat for prevailing conditions or for the local fleet usually know it and scale their expectations accordingly, they don't use their ratings as an excuse.
The key to good PHRF racing is a big enough fleet of roughly similar boats (in both rating and configuration). Unfortunately those days may be gone for good...
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
I agree, but the real key is to just enjoy sailing so much that a PHRF race is fun. Don't give a fuck about the rating, just sail well.
We have a dwindling local fleet and the one of the problems is a guy that wins almost all the time and still complains about his rating. Who the fuck wants to listen to that? Give it a rest. If you're -that- worried about a little trophy, go buy yourself one. If you're consumed by concern about "fair" ratings (pro tip: they don't exist) then volunteer to work on the local ratings committee.
Sailing is fun, or it isn't. If it's fun, then enjoy it. Don't be a killjoy.
We have a dwindling local fleet and the one of the problems is a guy that wins almost all the time and still complains about his rating. Who the fuck wants to listen to that? Give it a rest. If you're -that- worried about a little trophy, go buy yourself one. If you're consumed by concern about "fair" ratings (pro tip: they don't exist) then volunteer to work on the local ratings committee.
Sailing is fun, or it isn't. If it's fun, then enjoy it. Don't be a killjoy.
Goodvibes
under the southern cross I stand ...
- 1,495
- 444
- Banned
- #30
The question is self answering IMHO.
The boat is rated according to the sail plan it nominates with. A simple example would be the old Hobie 14 Vs Hobie Turbo. The same boat could run either, but each one had a different rating applied on nomination.
A boat could nominate without a spinnaker because two old blokes want to cruise, other of the same type does different. Different rating. Entry forms I have used have had 'tick boxes' for Spinnakers (Symetrical/Asso?). Unticked meant they were not using a kite.
If it was a passage race and because of headwinds the whole way they never used the kite too fucking bad.
The NOR needs to inform entrants that;
- The PHRF rating will be applied after nominations close, based on the details supplied on Registration for the event.
- The ratings will be "published on the NOTICE BOARD" at briefing, no discussions will be entered into regarding them.
If you do not have the words in the NOR, you (the official) will be the "arsehole who will not listen to reason" and that unfortunately spoils your fun and gives the whingers ammunition.
Steam Flyer
Sophisticated Yet Humble
TJSoCal
Super Anarchist
Probably the first part of the answer to that is "what do your local PHRF fleet rules/by laws (which are rules governing the event) say about it?"
Second part is "how many redress hearings do you want to do to resolve ambiguities?" If the answer to that is "preferably zero" then it's best to be specific.
Since this could impact a boat's decision to enter or not it should be spelled out in the NOR rather than SI. Probably something along the lines of "A boat entering as a non-spinnaker boat (or, in a non-spinnaker class if a separate class is offered) shall use her non-spinnaker offset as reflected on her PHRF certificate."
Wondering if the intent of a non-spin offset is to allow direct competition between spin and non-spin boats, or to reflect that lack of spinnaker impacts different boats differently and to equalize within the non-spin fleet?
Second part is "how many redress hearings do you want to do to resolve ambiguities?" If the answer to that is "preferably zero" then it's best to be specific.
Since this could impact a boat's decision to enter or not it should be spelled out in the NOR rather than SI. Probably something along the lines of "A boat entering as a non-spinnaker boat (or, in a non-spinnaker class if a separate class is offered) shall use her non-spinnaker offset as reflected on her PHRF certificate."
Wondering if the intent of a non-spin offset is to allow direct competition between spin and non-spin boats, or to reflect that lack of spinnaker impacts different boats differently and to equalize within the non-spin fleet?
I raced under PHRF-NW years ago and the standard split between spinnaker/nonspinnaker was 18 seconds so this number isn't really punitive. If they just suddenly decided to apply the spinnaker rating to a boat that never used a spinnaker, that would be punitive.
We have been mixing spin and nonspin boats in our races on the Chesapeake using ORR-Ez with success. Each boat gets a spread of handicaps based on the vpp with both spin and nonspin ratings. I have done races with my heavy old Gulfstar 40 with nonspin against spin and nonspin boats. I won one race by 13 secs on handicap, and got a 3rd in another with very close time deltas in the top 3 boats corrected times.
It helps having an accurate vpp like ORR is, and using the correct rating which requires some diligence from the OAs. It can be frustrating that some OAs show little interest in putting forth the effort to use the right rating for the conditions. Some declare the rating conditions the day before the race- or sometimes put the rating selection in the SIs well before the race takes place. Very annoying. If we want somewhat decent handicap racing, we need to step up the game from the organizational side. I have no doubt that the ORR vpp is the most accurate available rating tool out there (next to full blown numerical simulation), but it MUST be implemented well. And that is on the OAs/RCs who have to step up their game to yield happy racers.
Cmon OAs. If you want good racing instead of the continued decline of handicap fleets everywhere, you gotta put forth the effort to make good races.
It helps having an accurate vpp like ORR is, and using the correct rating which requires some diligence from the OAs. It can be frustrating that some OAs show little interest in putting forth the effort to use the right rating for the conditions. Some declare the rating conditions the day before the race- or sometimes put the rating selection in the SIs well before the race takes place. Very annoying. If we want somewhat decent handicap racing, we need to step up the game from the organizational side. I have no doubt that the ORR vpp is the most accurate available rating tool out there (next to full blown numerical simulation), but it MUST be implemented well. And that is on the OAs/RCs who have to step up their game to yield happy racers.
Cmon OAs. If you want good racing instead of the continued decline of handicap fleets everywhere, you gotta put forth the effort to make good races.
I just got my ORR and PHRF certificates for my new boat. ORR shows a significant difference for spin and non spin. PHRF is the same. I know which one I’d rather be racing NS with.
A development of the ORR certificates this year, blessed by USSailing, is that the ORR certs have standardized phrf ratings based on the one design Farr 40 being a rating of zero under phrf. So local phrf fleets can benefit by using a phrf rating based on the ORR vpp.
Newbee Racer
New member
I don't know if there is a standard way of handling this but I can share how Austin Yacht Club does it.
Other than multiple one-design fleets which I will exclude from below, we have two PHRF fleets: A fleet for 193 and faster and B fleet for boats 194 and slower
PHRF ratings for each boat assumes spinnaker
Each boat declares if spin or non-spin for a regatta or for series racing (once you declare for a series race -usually 5 to 7 in a series- you can't change it) racers can change their spin or non-spin status in different series
If a boat races non-spin, scoring committee (a sub-group under Race Committee) adds +9 to the PHRF rating on file
Intended outcome is to encourage short handed + older + non-spin confident folks to race, giving them a bit of incentive.
Practically speaking, that intended outcome has fallen short as +9 can never make up for spin sailing + different wind speeds have tremendously different impact on different boats (like C22 vs. Beneteau First 25)
Until we (or any club) take PHRF racing seriously and dedicate time and effort to level the plain field for different types of boats by factoring in wind speed ranges and actually inspecting each PHRF boat in the fleet for fine-tuning, PHRF rating based racing will not be fair
Other than multiple one-design fleets which I will exclude from below, we have two PHRF fleets: A fleet for 193 and faster and B fleet for boats 194 and slower
PHRF ratings for each boat assumes spinnaker
Each boat declares if spin or non-spin for a regatta or for series racing (once you declare for a series race -usually 5 to 7 in a series- you can't change it) racers can change their spin or non-spin status in different series
If a boat races non-spin, scoring committee (a sub-group under Race Committee) adds +9 to the PHRF rating on file
Intended outcome is to encourage short handed + older + non-spin confident folks to race, giving them a bit of incentive.
Practically speaking, that intended outcome has fallen short as +9 can never make up for spin sailing + different wind speeds have tremendously different impact on different boats (like C22 vs. Beneteau First 25)
Until we (or any club) take PHRF racing seriously and dedicate time and effort to level the plain field for different types of boats by factoring in wind speed ranges and actually inspecting each PHRF boat in the fleet for fine-tuning, PHRF rating based racing will not be fair
barleymalt
Super Anarchist
As yet another thread devolves into a PHRF rant, a couple comments.
[Disclaimer - I was a PHRF handicapper for six years] PHRF's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. It is a simple, cheap to administer one number non measurement based rule. It is very much succeptible to "horses for courses", given the typical wide range of competitors, conditions for a given race will usually favor one or a few boats over others. Using one national number has never made a lot of sense to me because the conditions are significantly different. A rating for SF Bay or Corpus Christi is not accurate for Chicago, Detroit or Annapolis and vice versa. Likewise the attempts to make PHRF a multi number system are lipstick on a pig. Why build on a flawed foundation?
VPP based rules have the capability to be more accurate, but the way that most clubs or OAs use them reduces that. ORR-EZ and ORC club are not pure measurement rules. Measuring boats and processing the data is expensive and resource intensive. For production boats, using sistership data is ok, but there are variations between hulls from even the best builders, and the amount of customization with a lot of boats makes that worse. Tightly regulated OD classes use corrector weights and other tools to compensate.
A VPP is a model, and while a lot of work has gone into making the models more accurate, they are still dependent on the data they are provided. If either the boat measurements and derived performance and/or the actual conditions aren't accurate, then neither will the results be. But, getting accurate actual condition data is also not that simple. Few instrument systems are properly calibrated and maintained, and except for windward-leeward bouy racing, competitors will often be sailing in significantly different conditions. Solvable problem, but again would take resources and money to do it properly.
Cost and time commitments are increasing barriers to competition. How many boats are willing to make those commitments for "fairer" racing at the weekday club level?
As someone said above, this is recreation. As long as it is fun, run what you brung and enjoy it.
[Rant off]
[Disclaimer - I was a PHRF handicapper for six years] PHRF's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. It is a simple, cheap to administer one number non measurement based rule. It is very much succeptible to "horses for courses", given the typical wide range of competitors, conditions for a given race will usually favor one or a few boats over others. Using one national number has never made a lot of sense to me because the conditions are significantly different. A rating for SF Bay or Corpus Christi is not accurate for Chicago, Detroit or Annapolis and vice versa. Likewise the attempts to make PHRF a multi number system are lipstick on a pig. Why build on a flawed foundation?
VPP based rules have the capability to be more accurate, but the way that most clubs or OAs use them reduces that. ORR-EZ and ORC club are not pure measurement rules. Measuring boats and processing the data is expensive and resource intensive. For production boats, using sistership data is ok, but there are variations between hulls from even the best builders, and the amount of customization with a lot of boats makes that worse. Tightly regulated OD classes use corrector weights and other tools to compensate.
A VPP is a model, and while a lot of work has gone into making the models more accurate, they are still dependent on the data they are provided. If either the boat measurements and derived performance and/or the actual conditions aren't accurate, then neither will the results be. But, getting accurate actual condition data is also not that simple. Few instrument systems are properly calibrated and maintained, and except for windward-leeward bouy racing, competitors will often be sailing in significantly different conditions. Solvable problem, but again would take resources and money to do it properly.
Cost and time commitments are increasing barriers to competition. How many boats are willing to make those commitments for "fairer" racing at the weekday club level?
As someone said above, this is recreation. As long as it is fun, run what you brung and enjoy it.
[Rant off]
That's because PHRF of the Chesapeake Bay has separate Spin and Non-Spin Fleets. They assign a boat a single rating (assuming the same factors that make a boat faster/slower with a spin - larger foretriangle dimensions will also make it faster without a spin relative to other boats in the non-spin fleet). So its an apples to oranges comparison. You can race NS on the Chesapeake quite fairly, you'll just only be racing against other Non Spin boats.
Pokey uh da LBC
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #40
I get the argument that allowing spin and non-spin rated boats in the same race together may get more boats to the line.
But I don't like that combing spin and non-spin rated boats discounts the value/advantage that practice and good boat handling should provide.
For example, say a 30' boat with spinnaker rates the same as a 40 footer with jib alone. Both boats finish a race in about the same time, but it took the spin boat significantly more skill to do so. Yet, the jib-only boat has an equal chance to win because their rating offset did the work for them.
I know people will flame that it's only phrf and one design rules, bla, bla, bla. But for most sailors, handicap racing is the only game around.
But I don't like that combing spin and non-spin rated boats discounts the value/advantage that practice and good boat handling should provide.
For example, say a 30' boat with spinnaker rates the same as a 40 footer with jib alone. Both boats finish a race in about the same time, but it took the spin boat significantly more skill to do so. Yet, the jib-only boat has an equal chance to win because their rating offset did the work for them.
I know people will flame that it's only phrf and one design rules, bla, bla, bla. But for most sailors, handicap racing is the only game around.
