pics: TF10, 2019 Vallejo Race

Airwick

Member
493
233
Victoria, BC
It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 

 

Trovão

Super Anarchist
It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 
It is not their (lawyers) fault that the engineers and/or builders didn't get it right. We have to earn a living too... :p ;)

 

βhyde

Super Anarchist
8,358
1,958
Beside Myself
I've owned a few bleeding edge boats. Mostly Int 14s, but also a Multi-23

Every one of them broke in some fashion in the course of normal sailing on SF Bay. I never once blamed the designer or manufacturer, as, well, we beat the shit out of boats here. 

That, and @bhyde was with me or around me a couple times, so there's that.
Man, we fucked that Multi-23 up. Mast, rudder, dignity. Who would have thought dropping a boat off a huge wave would break it. But I think we all know the key to a quality sailing experience is air time.

 

Russell Brown

Super Anarchist
1,758
1,435
Port Townsend WA
It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 
it's the immediate run to "lawyer up" when something goes wrong that has ruined so may of the things that we once held dear. I have never so much as filed an insurance claim in all my life, something I hope to avoid for the rest of it. That shit fucks with all of us and makes what we love unaffordable. I can see returning the boats for new beams, but lawsuits mean more lawyers and less cool boats and that is not a good direction to be going. Seems like that should be obvious.

 
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PIL66 - XL2

Super Anarchist
2,773
878
Stralya
josh_bartoszuk1 said:
M&M design sound. One boat broke a foil in SF last year, turns out both foils were full of cavities that the DNA guys decided it would be best to fill with bondo. Ultrasounds of the beams looked very similar apparently.
You are spilling some major beans here.... and i like it..... give us all the juicy bits, it's Anarchy

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,083
5,833
De Nile
Man, we fucked that Multi-23 up. Mast, rudder, dignity. Who would have thought dropping a boat off a huge wave would break it. But I think we all know the key to a quality sailing experience is air time.
It’s ok, I think I destroyed the gantry of your Int 14 and just did the Mahalo fix in Hawaii. 
 

but yeah, a nice bit of air and 4 big boys all hiking out? Sweet!  Sure went from noisy to quiet in a hurry. I will say I look at the ferry drivers differently after that as the guy gave us a nice Lee for a bit. What did you say to him anyway? Those little Honda 2hps are pretty good, eh?

 

pieterjan

Member
55
6
holland
Hi guys , clear that you all don't no much about the TF10 project .

It is not just a production boat . It is a ground breaking innovative concept not shown before .

Already designed in 2015....   Not any boat showed up on the water since  then  which is comparable.

So the good thing is that the owners of the first 5 boats are  not that nervous , as they understand the risks of being a pioneer .

If owners don't understand that then they should stay out of the foiling world .

The TF 10 is  (besides the Foiling A class)  the most fun boat I ever sailed .

Not comparable to anything else . super fast , super stable , super safe .

A real flying carpet were you can safely enjoy foiling with 4-6 persons onboard .

When sailed up to its potential  often faster and al lot less scary then a GC 32.

And off course things can break by exploring the bounderies .

For instance starting foiling upwind , and cranking a lot of  differential in the rudderfoils , sailing  in big breeze, with a reefed main bringing the SE down .... This results in higher speeds MM  and DNA held for possible .

See this  email of the initiator of the class and owner of the first TF 10 :

Van: Malcolm Gefter
Datum: dinsdag 1 december 2020
Aan: Ron O'Hanley, Stan Schreyer, "John J.Taylor III", Joey Mello, John, Jim Gibson, Guckinc
CC: Pete Melvin, Sven Erik Janssen, chad freitas, Rufus Van Gruisen
Onderwerp: Awareness of being a pioneer


[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Dear all,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Of course, I am disappointed about my boat breaking, BUT that's what happens to pioneers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]By comparison, look at the results of new foiling boats in the Vendee Globe The two top boats, are out with breakage (Hugo Boss and Charal) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]These guys saved no expense and worked for four years with the best in the business.—[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The second-place boat had to cut off a foil to avoid more damage to boat. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The third-place boat SANK-broke in half. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]That's not good odds of designing a new boat that does not break!!!! I got almost four years before a break.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Enright's boat 11th Hour got two hours out if his new foil before it exploded!!!-[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Hats off to Pete and Sven- in spite of the breakage, a pretty damn good job BY COMPARISON.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]We fix and move on-We were the first with a trimaran foiler and the Imoca the first of its class.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]-- [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Malcolm[/SIZE]

 

Wess

Super Anarchist
josh_bartoszuk1 said:
M&M design sound. One boat broke a foil in SF last year, turns out both foils were full of cavities that the DNA guys decided it would be best to fill with bondo. Ultrasounds of the beams looked very similar apparently.
Wow.  Useful information.  Thanks for sharing.

 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,374
119
Oslo Norway
The TF10 is a production boat -its not comparable to the IMOCA 60s that tries to win VG. As a 33ft trimaran - it should not be that hard to calculate the forces - ref the pros that are invoved - but as some apply over - it can maybe be hard to make them according to a strict standard - for the price they get for that production? 

 

pieterjan

Member
55
6
holland
I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....

ref to the remark on the post before yours : Apparently i ts normal to spread fake news in that country on the other side of the ocean ....

(In the meanwhile i received a apology mail from the guy  and his post is removed from the forum ) 

Anyway,

have a good new years  everybody 

and let's hope for a better sailing 2021

Rgds , Team DNA

_DSC2412-2_verkleind.png

 

SeaGul

Super Anarchist
1,374
119
Oslo Norway
I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....
Either the calculations was wrong - or it was something in the production that not was according to calculations. As this was production boats they must have put some security into the calculations - as the best pros out there. But then to build according to spec/price can be really hard - just to say its pioneers - is a little to easy - when boat are sold for how much each? How are you handling those breakages - insurance - guarantie - or the owners have to pay for it?   

I love the boats ...

 
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MultiThom

Super Anarchist
1,796
430
Benicia, CA
Either the calculations was wrong - or it was something in the production that not was according to calculations.
Or there is something not accounted for because there is no history of experience (ie, being a pioneer).  Fatigue failure for example is difficult to account for without experience since you can't be sure what is transmitting vibration and where it is going before dampened to nothing.  Tough to make something stiff and ductile at the same time.   I'm not claiming this to be a fatigue failure, I'm just giving a for instance.    

 

REW

Anarchist
928
59
I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....

ref to the remark on the post before yours : Apparently i ts normal to spread fake news in that country on the other side of the ocean ....

(In the meanwhile i received a apology mail from the guy  and his post is removed from the forum ) 

Anyway,

have a good new years  everybody 

and let's hope for a better sailing 2021

Rgds , Team DNA

View attachment 417775
FWIW, owners and builders have a way of going dark when boats break down.  Has lots to do with value, liability, reputation etc.  Pictures of broken beams aren't "fake news" as you put it.  One could argue that censoring info and removing it from public view is "fake".  Since DNA is clearly in the know it might be credible for you to discuss what caused the failures and what steps might be taken to mitigate.  Do beams need to be replaced to handle real world loads, or is some form of reinforcement contemplated?  It's your business so you certainly don't have to say anything, but the only way to control the "message" is to manage it and be proactive and truthful.  

Pretty clearly a rich guy's toy under any circumstance.  Would be cool to see a viable class racing together....but that ship may have sailed.

 

Trovão

Super Anarchist
Or there is something not accounted for because there is no history of experience (ie, being a pioneer).  Fatigue failure for example is difficult to account for without experience since you can't be sure what is transmitting vibration and where it is going before dampened to nothing.  Tough to make something stiff and ductile at the same time.   I'm not claiming this to be a fatigue failure, I'm just giving a for instance.    
= "calculations" was wrong...

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,209
1,073
Miami
In large, relatively heavy fast foilers, calculating the forces in a pitchpole, or near pitchpole... I'm sure it's easy to get it wrong. You get it grossly wrong in the prototype, it breaks early, you learn early; that's easy to handle.

But then people get more comfortable with the boat over time, and push it harder, for longer periods of time. Tighten the rig further. Pack it heavier (breeze is up, load more beer! more friends!). Material fatigue might creep in. So you get a second wave of breakage.

Hobie Wave catamarans. Those are indestructible. 

 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
Hi guys , clear that you all don't no much about the TF10 project .

It is not just a production boat . It is a ground breaking innovative concept not shown before .

Already designed in 2015....   Not any boat showed up on the water since  then  which is comparable.

So the good thing is that the owners of the first 5 boats are  not that nervous , as they understand the risks of being a pioneer .

If owners don't understand that then they should stay out of the foiling world .

The TF 10 is  (besides the Foiling A class)  the most fun boat I ever sailed .

Not comparable to anything else . super fast , super stable , super safe .

A real flying carpet were you can safely enjoy foiling with 4-6 persons onboard .

When sailed up to its potential  often faster and al lot less scary then a GC 32.

And off course things can break by exploring the bounderies .

For instance starting foiling upwind , and cranking a lot of  differential in the rudderfoils , sailing  in big breeze, with a reefed main bringing the SE down .... This results in higher speeds MM  and DNA held for possible .

See this  email of the initiator of the class and owner of the first TF 10 :

Van: Malcolm Gefter
Datum: dinsdag 1 december 2020
Aan: Ron O'Hanley, Stan Schreyer, "John J.Taylor III", Joey Mello, John, Jim Gibson, Guckinc
CC: Pete Melvin, Sven Erik Janssen, chad freitas, Rufus Van Gruisen
Onderwerp: Awareness of being a pioneer


[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Dear all,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Of course, I am disappointed about my boat breaking, BUT that's what happens to pioneers.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]By comparison, look at the results of new foiling boats in the Vendee Globe The two top boats, are out with breakage (Hugo Boss and Charal) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]These guys saved no expense and worked for four years with the best in the business.—[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The second-place boat had to cut off a foil to avoid more damage to boat. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The third-place boat SANK-broke in half. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]That's not good odds of designing a new boat that does not break!!!! I got almost four years before a break.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Enright's boat 11th Hour got two hours out if his new foil before it exploded!!!-[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Hats off to Pete and Sven- in spite of the breakage, a pretty damn good job BY COMPARISON.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]We fix and move on-We were the first with a trimaran foiler and the Imoca the first of its class.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]-- [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Malcolm[/SIZE]
Fair email from an owner that is willing to spend the money to get the boat he wants at the end of the day. Unfortunately, as others have said, this isn’t a one-off IMOCA or other foiling boat, and the ultrasounds done on the boats clearly indicate a manufacturing problem. I would say it’s up to the manufacturer to make it right, by building and installing new beams for the fleet. And yes, I realize this is no trivial feet as the beams are bonded into the amas and main hull, hence why getting the boats back to the factory and fixed properly is really the only good choice.

 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
In large, relatively heavy fast foilers, calculating the forces in a pitchpole, or near pitchpole... I'm sure it's easy to get it wrong. You get it grossly wrong in the prototype, it breaks early, you learn early; that's easy to handle.

But then people get more comfortable with the boat over time, and push it harder, for longer periods of time. Tighten the rig further. Pack it heavier (breeze is up, load more beer! more friends!). Material fatigue might creep in. So you get a second wave of breakage.

Hobie Wave catamarans. Those are indestructible. 
No one has pitchpole/capsized a TF10 AFAIK-those photos would be pretty public. Sounds like there were voids in the beam laminates in some pretty critical places, that when coupled with high upwind speeds achieved through running large amounts of rudder winglet differential resulted in beam failure. The proper solution is to build the beams properly, according to spec, replace the damaged beams and if necessary set a differential limit.

 

Tubes

Member
61
24
SoCal
Fair email from an owner that is willing to spend the money to get the boat he wants at the end of the day. Unfortunately, as others have said, this isn’t a one-off IMOCA or other foiling boat, and the ultrasounds done on the boats clearly indicate a manufacturing problem. I would say it’s up to the manufacturer to make it right, by building and installing new beams for the fleet. And yes, I realize this is no trivial feet as the beams are bonded into the amas and main hull, hence why getting the boats back to the factory and fixed properly is really the only good choice.


No one has pitchpole/capsized a TF10 AFAIK-those photos would be pretty public. Sounds like there were voids in the beam laminates in some pretty critical places, that when coupled with high upwind speeds achieved through running large amounts of rudder winglet differential resulted in beam failure. The proper solution is to build the beams properly, according to spec, replace the damaged beams and if necessary set a differential limit.
The guy who mentioned ultrasounds of the beams has retracted that statement. Do you have a personal account of that being the case, or you can prove that there are voids present in the beams?

 

F18 Sailor

Super Anarchist
2,678
255
Annapolis, MD
The guy who mentioned ultrasounds of the beams has retracted that statement. Do you have a personal account of that being the case, or you can prove that there are voids present in the beams?
No, I don’t have a personal account of that, and did not realize the statement was retracted. Question is, was it retracted because the lawyers got involved, or because it was inaccurate? 

For what it’s worth, I could inquire further but at the end of the day, it’s up to DNA to sort the issue out with their owners. Further, just so people are clear, I think DNA do about the best job out their in marine composites but they have had some failures in the past, and the boat shop is NOT the same as the Holland composites side (that build composite bridges and wind turbine components). I bring this up as I personally think most marine manufacturers should be held to a higher standard than they are.

 

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