Precision Sails - communication issues?

[Rain Man]

Zonker-

I have a neighbor who just purchased his first boat. He was getting ready to pull the trigger on a main and headsail and asked me to take a look at his quote.

It was the same thing you encountered. The cloth choices he could select were all fictional names they came up with.

I told him the quote was meaningless as I couldn't tell what the hell he was buying. I told him to call them back and obtain the manufacturer and model number for each of the materials.

He called them back and they gave him a similar run around. Still no idea what the sail was made out of.

He is a newbie and was looking for an affordable sail so I told hom to call National, Peak, FX, etc.

He said he would like to stick with Precision because he wanted to be a part of the "design process". I told him fine and I would call and find out what the deal was.

Precision apparently deals with a lot of newbies who fall for their snake oil high pressure tactics because as soon as we started to talk. This Ron guy started with the same exact same sing and dance.

I told Ron nicely that he as full of shit and wanted to know precisely what the sail was made from. He turned around and said that their designers would make that selection based on what he sails and where. WTF?

So I then asked what was involved in their "design" process and again received a bunch of nonsense and buzz words. So I asked him who are their designers and their backgrounds. Ron said bios were on their site.

Ok, so I went to their site. No one of these guys even sails!

Look, there is a place in this industry for a Precision, FX, etc. But this company just cannot stop bullshitting about what they are and what they aren't. They don't build their sails and any company that says it does and doesn't is a fraud.

Go elsewhere.

I asked what the sailcloth would be and they told me the exact cloth - from their message to me: Sailcloth: Bainbridge Strong Fill SPX 855 8.3oz.  I looked it up and this led to some discussion about whether a high aspect ratio cloth should be used vs. low aspect as my mainsail was on the boundary between the two.

They told me there was a limited choice of cloths available - it was mid-pandemic.  They said I could have Marblehead if I wanted it but it would cost more and delay the build as the loft didn't have any in stock at the time.   Seemed fair to me and put me in the driver's seat on that decision.

Now, was the sail actually built from that cloth?  Who knows?

I'm not sad I purchased a sail from them, I paid for and received exactly what I thought I was getting, the sail arrived only slightly behind schedule in the middle of a global pandemic, but I would suggest that newbs and racers not use them.  I have a sail that will last a long time on a cruising boat.

 

[CriticalPath]

What worries me is the used sails they have listed for sale. I was searching for a genoa for a Catalina 30 and there were literally at least 3 candidates. What are the chances of that?  All sound almost new. Are they fucking up that often that they have a huge inventory of new sails that didn't fit or the customer rejected?

Sailmakers, especially if you work for a bigger chain of lofts, is this typical?

https://www.precisionsailloft.com/find-your-sail/used-sails/used-headsails/

YIKES!  I was a sailmaker for a small independent a long time ago (its been 15+ years), but this kind of inventory is not typical.  Any sail loft carrying an inventory of 139 used sails, most of which are marked "new/unused" or "new/used" has several problems.  How could so many mistakes have been made?  And how can they afford the carrying costs of these finished goods on hand?  Sailmakers are not that profitable...

Remember that Precision fixes sails by replacing them.  Apparently it is cheaper for them to do that than have to make that embarrassing phone call to a local loft to fix mistakes - if the local lofts will even take their calls.  

My guess is that these used sails are mostly mistakes - one reef instead of two ordered, cross-cut instead of radial ordered, that sort of thing.  However, I wouldn't pay for one until I had a chance to put it on the boat and look at it.

I'd love to see the business plan that covers that practice.  Sure outsourcing sailmaking to offshore lofts results in savings, especially if you can ship in bulk, but no way is this a sustainable model.

 
This is an example of my communication with Precision in the fall of 2018. Nothing fancy, just sails for a Catalina 27.

This (lack of) communication and transparency causes me to wonder if (at least in low budget cases) Precision don't get to specify the cloth their subcontractor loft uses.

Manufacture of sailcloth is a technical and exacting process, often resulting in large quantities of nonconforming cloth.  These cloths aren't scrapped, they're sold at discount prices to lofts who'll take them.  When an offshore loft gets a large volume of this cloth, they turn around and offer very attractive pricing to their customers to use up their inventory.  The fact that it's name brand cloth is shared, but the fact that it's seconds quality might not be...

So Precision's "designers" probably get a list of what's currently available, and try to pigeonhole their customers into taking what the offshore loft has sitting on the shelf.

It's important to know that offshore lofts providing outsourcing for sailmaking will produce a sail to whatever specs the sailmaker requests:  design, cloth, construction, trim and finishing details, hardware, etc..  They are perfectly capable of producing an excellent quality sail.  BUT the more detail specified, the more that eats into the bottom line savings...

Personally I'll continue to support locally designed and finished sails.

Cheers!

 

[Rain Man]

YIKES!  I was a sailmaker for a small independent a long time ago (its been 15+ years), but this kind of inventory is not typical.  Any sail loft carrying an inventory of 139 used sails, most of which are marked "new/unused" or "new/used" has several problems.  How could so many mistakes have been made?  And how can they afford the carrying costs of these finished goods on hand?  Sailmakers are not that profitable...

I'd love to see the business plan that covers that practice.  Sure outsourcing sailmaking to offshore lofts results in savings, especially if you can ship in bulk, but no way is this a sustainable model.

This (lack of) communication and transparency causes me to wonder if (at least in low budget cases) Precision don't get to specify the cloth their subcontractor loft uses.

Manufacture of sailcloth is a technical and exacting process, often resulting in large quantities of nonconforming cloth.  These cloths aren't scrapped, they're sold at discount prices to lofts who'll take them.  When an offshore loft gets a large volume of this cloth, they turn around and offer very attractive pricing to their customers to use up their inventory.  The fact that it's name brand cloth is shared, but the fact that it's seconds quality might not be...

So Precision's "designers" probably get a list of what's currently available, and try to pigeonhole their customers into taking what the offshore loft has sitting on the shelf.

It's important to know that offshore lofts providing outsourcing for sailmaking will produce a sail to whatever specs the sailmaker requests:  design, cloth, construction, trim and finishing details, hardware, etc..  They are perfectly capable of producing an excellent quality sail.  BUT the more detail specified, the more that eats into the bottom line savings...

Personally I'll continue to support locally designed and finished sails.

Cheers!

So, the cloth manufacturers allow their seconds to be sold under the brand name?  That's an interesting accusation.

 

[Sailkraft]

So I then asked what was involved in their "design" process and again received a bunch of nonsense and buzz words. So I asked him who are their designers and their backgrounds. Ron said bios were on their site.

Ok, so I went to their site. No one of these guys even sails!

I found the same when I looked up their linkedin profiles, I think they used to link them to the website.  It can be said for other lofts. Rolly Tasker for example don't have any western sailmakers at their plant in Thailand since Rolly died, which is probably why their construction is still 70's style. But like Precision it is the good marketing that brings in the orders, at least in the mid range cruising. 

 

[CriticalPath]

So, the cloth manufacturers allow their seconds to be sold under the brand name?  That's an interesting accusation.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth RM but that's your interpretation, not what I said.  Perhaps in the politically-correct society that SA's become I should've said "might be shared" instead of "is shared".  I'll take a hundred lashings for my misspeak if it makes you feel better about being a Precision client.

I know one cloth manufacturer who offers their cosmetic seconds (no limitations given) and structural seconds (for "patch and bag use only") to any customers who request access to the list.  We made sails for our own boats out of cosmetic seconds but wouldn't offer the product to a paying customer.  Never had any follow-up as to how/when/where we used the seconds material, so if you wanna jump on the cloth manufacturers' case too then go at it...

Cheers!

 

[ryley]

Even for structured luff sails?

it took 0 minutes for every other sail maker to come up with their version of a structured luff.

 

[carcrash]

it took 0 minutes for every other sail maker to come up with their version of a structured luff.

I was just suggesting that they do seem to have some expertise that has scaled very well. Robbie Doyle, and now Mike Sanderson and Richard Bouzaid have long track records of doing pretty amazing things in the sailing domain.

That said, I am not all that enamored by any given logo in the corner. A global brand does not equate to you getting the best sails for you personally. But a global brand does not mean you will NOT get great service from someone who really cares about you: lots of people who were working in local lofts now work for those global brands.

I buy from sailors I know, who know me, and who provide me with the design and after sales service I need. I learn from them, even after all these years.

 

[ryley]

I buy from sailors I know, who know me, and who provide me with the design and after sales service I need. I learn from them, even after all these years.

this is the important part. I've settled in pretty well at this point, and the fact is that one sailmaker may not be perfect for all of your sails. When the J105 north americans were in Marblehead, I believe 3 different sailmakers could claim that their sails were on the winning boat

 

[CriticalPath]

I buy from sailors I know, who know me, and who provide me with the design and after sales service I need. I learn from them, even after all these years.

Ay-MEN!  Well said and I'll two-peat that experience!

 

[OCS]

Precision sails appear to be an online sail supplier, not a sailmaking group per se. Looking at their website and anecdotally they use a few companies (in china I would assume) to make up sails to their taken orders. Designs supplied by their in house designers which dont fill me with a great deal of confidence looking at their bios. This "farming out" of resources leads to a few issues looking at some of the sailshots of their website and social media (why would you post those!!! Don't you know what a poorly fitted, underengineered or poor sail shape looks like?) and the lengthy list of newish sails in their 2nd hand list.

 

[Zonker]

What do you think of 6 oz cloth for a staysail on a heavy 34ft boat?

Too light. A heavy 7 oz minimum

 

[Rain Man]

Manufacture of sailcloth is a technical and exacting process, often resulting in large quantities of nonconforming cloth.  These cloths aren't scrapped, they're sold at discount prices to lofts who'll take them.  When an offshore loft gets a large volume of this cloth, they turn around and offer very attractive pricing to their customers to use up their inventory.  The fact that it's name brand cloth is shared, but the fact that it's seconds quality might not be...

So Precision's "designers" probably get a list of what's currently available, and try to pigeonhole their customers into taking what the offshore loft has sitting on the shelf.

Well, actually, you have actually made two accusations by inference.  You are making the accusation that this second-quality sailcloth is being sold to lofts without a specific disclaimer that it not be sold as brand name cloth.  Your second accusation is that lofts are buying second-quality cloth and selling it to customers as first quality.  Otherwise the lofts couldn't turn around an offer it as brand name cloth.  Be careful.  People actually read what you write.  This is a serious accusation about both the cloth manufacturers and the lofts.  

As for your second statement about pigeonholing the customer to take what's available, I have had the same occur with top tier lofts.  This actually makes sense - it would be reasonable for any sailmaker to tell a customer that they can produce a sail on x schedule with what they have on hand, but if a specific cloth is desired the schedule will be y. Precision is no different in this respect.

 

[Gouvernail]

At the risk of getting flamed I will chime in on this. If the first contact I get from a customer is, “ can you give me an estimate?”… I usually don’t bother to call back.

i have many customers who want something and expect me to give a fair price. 

 

[Sailkraft]

Well, actually, you have actually made two accusations by inference.  You are making the accusation that this second-quality sailcloth is being sold to lofts without a specific disclaimer that it not be sold as brand name cloth.  Your second accusation is that lofts are buying second-quality cloth and selling it to customers as first quality.  Otherwise the lofts couldn't turn around an offer it as brand name cloth.  Be careful.  People actually read what you write.  This is a serious accusation about both the cloth manufacturers and the lofts.  

As for your second statement about pigeonholing the customer to take what's available, I have had the same occur with top tier lofts.  This actually makes sense - it would be reasonable for any sailmaker to tell a customer that they can produce a sail on x schedule with what they have on hand, but if a specific cloth is desired the schedule will be y. Precision is no different in this respect.

Yes the cloth companies sell seconds cloth to lofts without any disclaimer. It is up to the loft what they do after that. 

Why don't you go sailing with your Strong Fill SPX sail while it lasts and stop trolling. 

 

[TheDragon]

Try bacon.com for used sail consignment. They have a mobile website that finally works and is easy to navigate.

Weird, put in my criteria and they came up with what appear to be the same two sails I found on the Precision website, even says they are by Precision!

Tried putting in my boat details and asking for a staysail and they only offered me genoa-sized sails, so not quite savvy to what a staysail is.

 

[10thTonner]

At the risk of getting flamed I will chime in on this. If the first contact I get from a customer is, “ can you give me an estimate?”… I usually don’t bother to call back.

i have many customers who want something and expect me to give a fair price. 

When I was new to boat ownership I called my local sailmaker for exactly such an estimate. He said: „for white sails about this-and-that per square meter. A little more if the sail is small, a little less if it’s really big.” It cost him about thirty seconds and it got him the job in the end. Just sayin. 

 

[CriticalPath]

Well, actually, you have actually made two accusations by inference.  You are making the accusation that this second-quality sailcloth is being sold to lofts without a specific disclaimer that it not be sold as brand name cloth.  Your second accusation is that lofts are buying second-quality cloth and selling it to customers as first quality.  Otherwise the lofts couldn't turn around an offer it as brand name cloth.  Be careful.  People actually read what you write.  This is a serious accusation about both the cloth manufacturers and the lofts.  

As for your second statement about pigeonholing the customer to take what's available, I have had the same occur with top tier lofts.  This actually makes sense - it would be reasonable for any sailmaker to tell a customer that they can produce a sail on x schedule with what they have on hand, but if a specific cloth is desired the schedule will be y. Precision is no different in this respect.

Thanks for your concern and advice but all I've done is share my experience and observations.  You've interpreted it as accusations and inference...

Congrats to any loft who've successfully encouraged you to accept what's on hand rather than what's best suited to your application.  That identifies the differences in your and my individual buying criteria.  Lofts need more buyers like each of us!

I keep thinking of carcrash's earlier comment:

I buy from sailors I know, who know me, and who provide me with the design and after sales service I need. I learn from them, even after all these years.

By following this mantra long enough I've also learned the value and importance of trust.  For me, building a relationship into a friendship is of much greater value than saving a few bucks...

Cheers!

 

[Monkey]

At the risk of getting flamed I will chime in on this. If the first contact I get from a customer is, “ can you give me an estimate?”… I usually don’t bother to call back.

i have many customers who want something and expect me to give a fair price. 

I don’t really understand this. I would never blindly turn my boat over to someone without getting an estimate first. I understand you can’t just wing it and give one sight unseen, but getting an estimate is perfectly reasonable. 

 

[fufkin]

I’ve been going to the same sailmaker all my life.

One time for some reason I had to pick up a sail at his house instead of the loft.

We went down to the basement where I noticed literally hundreds of jars of tomatoes. His wife ran an Italian restaurant and was so fastidious that she had to grow all her own tomatoes for the restaurant because she just couldn’t find any up to her standards.

She sent me on my way with two jars, a bottle of olive oil in a pine box that looked really expensive, and strict orders to add nothing more than the olive oil and fresh basil. The sauce was incredible.

Now that’s what I call customer service.

 

[Gouvernail]

Clarifying…. As mine is the oldest sailboat repair business within 200 miles and we certainly provide estimates when absolutely necessary. 
 

People leave messages every day. Our outgoing message suggests the caller leave a “filibuster describing the project, boat, or even your life  hopes and ambitions.”

I take a while every few days and return a bunch of calls in the order of which messages most interest me. 
 

i despise wasting my life creating estimates and detailed invoices. 

It takes me anywhere from a couple hours to an entire day to write up a detailed estimate. I speak way faster than I type, and I think way faster than I can verbally express my thoughts. 
The pricing process includes learning about the customer’s goals, figuring out how to achieve them, figuring out what part I can play, figuring out how to actually do it,  guessing what it might cost me, and telling the customer  how many dollars we will need from him/ her. 
     Fundamentally: 

Every minute spent writing estimates, invoices, or posting in these forums could be better silent on actually doing something productive. 
 

if a person calls asking us to help get something done, we are interested. If a caller’s first concern is some fucking paperwork , I am not likely to give a shit.