Controversial_posts
Anarchist
- 620
- 146
I don’t think I have ever seen a furler that high off the deck... The entire sail is above the lifelines
Precision Sails
- Thread starter Jules
- Start date
Yeah. It’s high. The turnbuckle is oversized and the Alado furler drum sits on top of the turn buckle. I bought the boat this way and intend to change it. It is very nice to be able to see to leeward though.
Supercruise is no bueno for shape holding. It's designed to last long time as a white triangle. It's a medium quality to budget cloth.
https://www.contendersailcloth.com/product/supercruise-us/
Jules
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #44
Mack gave us this quote. No idea how this compares to the other sails.
[SIZE=10pt]Jib/Genoa Miter Cut 135% W/Cover&Foam:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron with Sunbrella cover and luff foam[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Discount:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10 %[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Total: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The same sail in Warp Drive radial Dacron is $3144 and I would not recommend it over the miter cut genoa I quoted. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jib/Genoa Miter Cut 135% W/Cover&Foam:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron with Sunbrella cover and luff foam[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2,840.78[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Discount:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10 %[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]( 284.08 )[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Total: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]$2,556.70[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The same sail in Warp Drive radial Dacron is $3144 and I would not recommend it over the miter cut genoa I quoted. [/SIZE]
CriticalPath
Anarchist
Mack's sails are primarily targeted towards the cruising crowd. For an independent based in Stuart FL they've got pretty good coverage throughout the US and Canadian east coast, their products are generally well-constructed, and tthe Mack Pack cover in particular is pretty sweet.
Having said that, I don't share their infatuation with miter cut genoas. Like they say in their promo materials ( http://macksails.com/sails/), the design grew out of need for stretch control due to less sophisticated sailcloths available at the time. I'm not convinced there's any benefit nowadays, and in fact a miter cut may hinder the sailcloth's performance since woven cloths are built with fill and warp yarns determined to maximize the cloth's performance in crosscut (horizontal seams) or radial (fan shaped panels extending outwards from the sail corners). The Marblehead cloth Mack recommend is a premium cloth for crosscut construction, but wouldn't be my selection for a miter cut sails with half the panels oriented vertically.
Mack's radial drive quote sounds fair - any idea which weight Warp Drive cloth they've chosen?
And Cristoforo can go pound salt with his 30% off recommendation. Why do so many sailors think it's appropriate to drive down pricing for sails beyond quoted discounts? Not many folks are getting rich as sailmakers, let your local loft make some money so they're still in business to serve you next year...
Cheers!
Jules
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #46
Thanks for the information. I know practically nothing about sail cloths, but I'm starting to learn.
Mack's quote didn't include any more information that what I provided. But I was curious why they said would not recommend the Warp Drive radial over the miter cut genoa.
KC375
Super Anarchist
Clearly their sail spec charts are written by marketing. Classic, if a number is above mid point on a ten point scale it must be at least OK. But they don’t have a ten point scale they really have a 4.5 point scale with their lowest rating being 5.5 and highest a 10. So a rating of six is near the bottom (or presumably shit) not above average.
Ajax
Super Anarchist
It's not "bunk." You just have shitty, local lofts.
Force 10 Sails in Easton, Maryland comes to your boat, measures your rig, helps you build the sail that best fits your use-case, will help you bend it on, go sailing, and if it's fucked up, they'll fix it. They make all their own shit, no outsourcing over-seas. They invited me to the loft to watch them sew it all together (which I did).
My buddy who owns a sister ship, contracted a different "local loft" to build his mainsail. They outsource. Sail numbers forgotten, Dutchman system forgotten, the sail was improperly made, and had a huge belly. This "local loft" basically told him to pound sand after they grudgingly installed the Dutchman system. He took the main to Force 10 where my guy took it apart and re-cut it for a pittance. Now it's 90% better. (There's no un-fucking a fucked up sail 100%).
I've had them make me a tri-radial genoa and mainsail. Force 10 is far cheaper than North and slightly less expensive than Quantum. They also make higher tech sails but I have no experience with that.
OCS
Member
Cross cut cloths are the right cloth for a mitre cut sail. It’s like building 2 joined cross cut sails.one addressing leech load the other foot loads.
you are right, it is not as critical with today’s more stable Dacron. When I first started sailmaking 40+ years ago, it was all mitre cut Genoa’s.
Hell we still do the odd one if it suits the sail configuration better.
http://bullsails.blogspot.com/2016/04/back-to-70s-mitre-cut-sails.html
ps Mack Sails seem a pretty good operation.
CriticalPath
Anarchist
I've never heard of leech and foot loads as justification for a sail construction technique before.
Perhaps*crosscut cloth is "the right cloth" for a mitre cut yankee sail in the style from your link, where the seams in the lower panels are diagonal. Not necessarily because the cloth is designed and suitable for the application, but rather because it's the least bad choice...
But in Mack's genoa, the seams of the lower panels are nearly vertical i.e. the cloth is being used opposite to the design intentions of the warp and fill specifications, and also opposite to the intended loads of the tensioned loom construction engineered by the sailcloth manufacturer.
Does anyone remember North's highly marketed but badly flawed "C-Cut" sails in the early 80s with all vertical panels contruction available in both woven and early laminated cloths? The sails may've been fast outta the bag, but bagged out shortly thereafter.
Cheers!
Geronimo
Member
Should rename this thread Mack Sails
OCS
Member
Ever tried going upwind? Any potato sack can perform reaching or downwind. The proof of the pudding is how does a jib/genoa perform upwind. BTW, you're sailing so deep a cruising gennaker would be a more appropriate sail.
CriticalPath
Anarchist
OCS, I always understood that loads emanate from the pointy corner bits into the body of the sail (as illustrated by your diagram). But you're saying loads come from the leech and foot (which is contrary to your diagram - I don't see any loads coming from the edge of the leech or foot). I'm trying to understand your point, what am I missing?
Geronimo, this isn't about Mack (they make a fine product), it's about mitre cut genoas. I just don't understand see any benefit besides the classic look when constructed with modern sail cloth.
Cheers!
OCS
Member
My apologies for not being clearer, in a traditional woven fabric the cloth is engineered so the fill ( across the roll ) threads are stronger either in number or denier, as well as the being laid flat ( the warp threads along the roll are crimped around the fill threads). This is reversed in warp orientated cloth for radial construction and evened out both ways in balanced cloth. Balanced cloth is the norm now for low aspect sails rather than mitre cut. But a traditional fill orientated cloth suits a mitre cut sail as the load is aligned.
The issue with mitre cut is that pesky joining seam which is on the bias angle!
http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailing_Breezes_Current/Articles/July04/PanelPt1.htm
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm surprised lofts are still offering sewn Dacron sails at discounted prices when membrane sail technology has matured and at the moderate price points are only a small premium (20-30%). Agreed everybody got a bad taste concerning early membrane sails where the Mylar delaminated and the load bearing fiber was eaten by UV and flogging quite quickly. The skipper I raced with bought an orange (expensive) PBO genoa in the '80's that didn't last one season, ouch.
It's 2020 folks and North is marketing 3Di NORDAC (Dacron) sails using the same composite molding technology that the exotic AC racing sails use with ridiculously expensive carbon filaments. Sure it's double+ the cost of a sewn Dacron sail but may have 5 times the longevity long term concerning sail shape if cared for. Do the math folks. Or not; I've friends who are long term cruisers who point out they don't need the "racing" sail shape because they can accept losing a few tenths of knots under sail. Well, when *beating upwind* sail shape is a make or break issue, not a few tenths+- but is the actual ability to make progress to windward at a reasonable pace. Might matter on a lee shore. They point out the iron genoa is an option; one friend in particular has sailed south to Panama with shit sails and admits he was under power 75% of the time. Might as well own an RV.
My point is the North NORDAC 3Di option, although expensive, really isn't long term and should be under consideration for any blue water voyager who likes to sail.
It's 2020 folks and North is marketing 3Di NORDAC (Dacron) sails using the same composite molding technology that the exotic AC racing sails use with ridiculously expensive carbon filaments. Sure it's double+ the cost of a sewn Dacron sail but may have 5 times the longevity long term concerning sail shape if cared for. Do the math folks. Or not; I've friends who are long term cruisers who point out they don't need the "racing" sail shape because they can accept losing a few tenths of knots under sail. Well, when *beating upwind* sail shape is a make or break issue, not a few tenths+- but is the actual ability to make progress to windward at a reasonable pace. Might matter on a lee shore. They point out the iron genoa is an option; one friend in particular has sailed south to Panama with shit sails and admits he was under power 75% of the time. Might as well own an RV.
My point is the North NORDAC 3Di option, although expensive, really isn't long term and should be under consideration for any blue water voyager who likes to sail.
Movable Ballast
Anarchist
Sad. A sailboat that can only go downwind and one would assume powers upwind exclusively.
Oh yes. Many One Design rules restrict sail construction materials and I was popped by that after buying a NORDAC 3DL Pentex genoa. Couldn't fly it under one design but it was effective in PHRF.
