eros
Member
J_T said:
Since they were both on port and no mention of other boats why didn't the windward boat that was sailing DDW just jibe onto starboard as long as they gave the other boat the opportunity to keep clear
Proper course
- Thread starter JeffR
- Start date
Since they were both on port and no mention of other boats why didn't the windward boat that was sailing DDW just jibe onto starboard as long as they gave the other boat the opportunity to keep clear
walterbshaffer
Super Anarchist
Probably because this would have meant they'd have to jibe once more back onto port to make the leeward mark and they did'nt want to go into a starboard rounding leeward mark on port.
JustDroppingBy
Super Anarchist
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- 0
LOL, this years or last years? ;-}}}} Somehow I don't have much luck with them there, which is odd, the more the wind blows, the more my crew gets up and kicks.
What in the world are you talking about? You do what you need to in order to get around the mark ahead of the other boats. That's why we have rules.
walterbshaffer
Super Anarchist
I'm talking about why the windward boat in this scenario did not hot it up away from the leeward boat and and then jibe onto starboard (with ROW thereby) to take out the leeward port tack boat.
I'm not saying it was a tactically smart thing to do, but it was (I think) what they were after: they wanted to be going into a starboard rounding on starboard with only one more jibe, not have to jibe twice and come in on port even though that would have made them inside boat. The whole thing just sounds lazy.
The way they played it sounded like they were content to just soak down on port, jibe after the leeward boat goes for the mark and be content to be the outside leeward and behind boat. To each his own!
mjpurcell
Anarchist
I went leafing through RRS and for the life of me, I could not find that as a proper hail. Citation please.
Ive done that in dinghys.
Stupid proper course, why don't they just quantize it and say. Something like leeward boat has rights to drive weather boat all the way to head to wind. or 90* to wind. Maybe in the next couple generations of rule books.
JeffR
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #67
You are taking what I said out of context. That statement was in response to why I didn't just heat it up early and go over his transom. I did not want to do that for tactical reasons. I wanted to sail the course I had been sailing for 10 minutes before we converged. I did not sail below that course to get overlapped with them, we just converged.
While we were overlapped after I had to bare away to avoid hitting them I repeatedly stated that I had been sailing my polars and wanted to come back up to my original course.
If I went to the room on this I would bring my polars and explain how we had been sailing these angles long before we converged with them.
Obviously the angles worked or I never would have cuaght up to a boat that owes me time.
This is beercan racing. When you started to get close to him, knowing you were faster, you should have already been either:
1. Heading up to roll him
2. Gybing back onto starboard with the intent of gybing back onto port at the layline.
Fleet handicap racing is all about NOT fucking with people. If you had an opportunity to not be there, you shouldn't have been there.
From a rules standpoint though, you're correct. Explain it to him at the bar.
1. Heading up to roll him
2. Gybing back onto starboard with the intent of gybing back onto port at the layline.
Fleet handicap racing is all about NOT fucking with people. If you had an opportunity to not be there, you shouldn't have been there.
From a rules standpoint though, you're correct. Explain it to him at the bar.
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Don't race much big boat stuff, do ya?
Allowing people to do that is a recipe for disaster.
Regarding formal protests in a week night series, we have not had to have a full protest hearing since we added the following to our SIs:
Protests:
Protest hearings will be held as soon as possible and the results will be posted. For protests involving an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2, where there is no damage, the parties involved in the protest may opt for arbitration. One representative of each party shall meet with a mutually agreed upon arbitrator. After taking testimony from each representative, the arbitrator will decide either: a) No boat broke a rule. If the representatives agree, the protest is withdrawn. If any representative disagrees, the jury will schedule a protest hearing. B) One or both boats broke a rule. The representative(s) of the boat(s) breaking a rule agree to withdraw from the race and will be scored as RAF and the protest will be withdrawn. If any representative disagrees, the jury will schedule a protest hearing. c) The protest does not qualify for arbitration. The jury will schedule a protest hearing. If the protest is withdrawn, the arbitration will neither be reopened nor grounds for redress. This changes RRS 62.1(a). The arbitrator may be present in the protest hearing as an observer but will not take part in the decision of the jury.
This process has worked very well, it almost seems like people have decided it is better to ask to be scored RAF rather than being thrown out with a DSQ. I do the scoring for the races and have had people send me e-mails the following day asking me to change their score to RAF after they looked at the rule book and have decided they were wrong, even though no protest was ever mentioned.
Protests:
Protest hearings will be held as soon as possible and the results will be posted. For protests involving an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2, where there is no damage, the parties involved in the protest may opt for arbitration. One representative of each party shall meet with a mutually agreed upon arbitrator. After taking testimony from each representative, the arbitrator will decide either: a) No boat broke a rule. If the representatives agree, the protest is withdrawn. If any representative disagrees, the jury will schedule a protest hearing. B) One or both boats broke a rule. The representative(s) of the boat(s) breaking a rule agree to withdraw from the race and will be scored as RAF and the protest will be withdrawn. If any representative disagrees, the jury will schedule a protest hearing. c) The protest does not qualify for arbitration. The jury will schedule a protest hearing. If the protest is withdrawn, the arbitration will neither be reopened nor grounds for redress. This changes RRS 62.1(a). The arbitrator may be present in the protest hearing as an observer but will not take part in the decision of the jury.
This process has worked very well, it almost seems like people have decided it is better to ask to be scored RAF rather than being thrown out with a DSQ. I do the scoring for the races and have had people send me e-mails the following day asking me to change their score to RAF after they looked at the rule book and have decided they were wrong, even though no protest was ever mentioned.
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JustDroppingBy
Super Anarchist
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eros
Member
Moonshine
Member
precicely.... to be honest, i feel the boat often at fault is the one coming in from leeward in my opinion, as they often sail into a position (with rights) at a hotter angle. which bings boats together.
It should be clear cut who is at taking the mickey.... if a boat comes in 20 degrees hotter than the boat to windward that is running, the leeward boat should have decided early where they want to go and either gybe off, or luff up over the stern and continue on the+20 degree angle. The only thing likely to come of forceing a leeward overlap is a whole lot of stress, dirty air and a big bag of slowness. if you are tracking +20 degrees, the windward boat is unlikely to luff you because you will be away in no time once you cross their stern.
Again, it should be clear if the windward boat is running way low.....
In handicap fleets, i've rarely seen luffing happening on a run of late, because everyone realises how slow it is for all concerned.
sailing into conflict doesn't help your speed around the course, you are a lot faster looking for the clean track with clear air and water.
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sailman
Super Anarchist
Of course there is that whole thing about sailing the race the fastest you can and tactically maneuvering opponents. If I sail the entire run at a certain TWA according to my boat's polars and it is in my interest to push you out of the way rather than heat up around you, then guess what? You are getting pushed. Yes. it's a beer can race but it's still a race.
Will Museler
Moonshine
Member
but not when it can put you in the protest room. Everyone knows the room is a 50:50 place at the best of times...
Prove to me you were sailing at 128degree AWA? can you? nope... it would be your word against the opponent. We all know not everyone in the room is truthful, and that makes close conflict a risky enough manoever fo little gain.
One is better to avoid marginal calls. it is called percentage sailing. on OD or match racing , fine go ahead, but when against the clock, you are better concentrating on getting to the mark faster full stop. Shagging someone tactically might feel good, but it is a bit pointless if you force them into such a kerfuffle that 5 others pass the pair of you. on te inside or outside
you seem to miss the bigger picture.... win the battle and lose the war and all that.
walterbshaffer
Super Anarchist
walterbshaffer
Super Anarchist
No, I completely understand that. My point was that if you mention a tactical advantage in your argument you dilute your best, fastest & most proper course argument. Nothing more.
sailman
Super Anarchist
The protest room is a crap shoot regardless of how correct you are going in, so your choice is to roll over and take it?
In response to your question, yes. Based on the prevailing conditions (8-10 TWS) I would be sailing around 130 AWA and I am sure I could get a witness to say that I was sailing angles for the leg and the other boat was just pointing the boat DDW. If you would like to interject some facts here you could also point out that an S2 9.1 caught, yes caught, a J29MHIB on a downwind leg. How? Probably because they were sailing angles and the J29 was DDW. There was nothing marginal about this call. You catch a faster boat and know that they will extend again on the upwind leg, what do you do? You push them back. Read the original post again, the S2 and the J29 each sailed their own consistent angles through out the leg.
Will Museler
Moonshine
Member
well you clearly did...
i'm bored...
protest or STFU then!
oh....and don't forget to show us your wifes / girlfriends tits as well....
