Proper course

[my nuts]

I went leafing through RRS and for the life of me, I could not find that as a proper hail. Citation please.

you are correct that it is not one of the required hails. I never intended to state that it was. there are many communications between boats that are not required, but end up falling under the category of good practice. a port boat hailing "tack or cross" is also not required, nor dies it need to be answered, but that doesn't mean that it isn't good practice.

the more competitors know about what each other are thinking, the less likely they are to end up in a protest situation in the first place.

 

[condor]

... a port boat hailing "tack or cross" is also not required, nor dies it need to be answered, but that doesn't mean that it isn't good practice...

Now there's another can o' worms opened up. Outside assistance arguments, anyone?

 

[my nuts]

Now there's another can o' worms opened up. Outside assistance arguments, anyone?

fine, how about a hail of "starboard" or "come up" (as leeward boat).

the tack or cross situation has already been hashed to death. please use search.

 

[condor]

the tack or cross situation has already been hashed to death. please use search.

That was my point, apparently attempted to be made too subtly.

 

[JustDroppingBy]

No, I completely understand that. My point was that if you mention a tactical advantage in your argument you dilute your best, fastest & most proper course argument. Nothing more.

How do you think that tactics dilute your argument as a reasoning? I don't follow. The leeward boat is the ROW boat, the windward boat is burdened. As the ROW boat, the leeward boat has the right to take the weather boat up if they choose to do so. If the leeward boat is, for example (and not the one used in the original post), a J105, and the weather boat is a J35, the J35 has no right to refuse to come up because they feel the 105 sails a higher -- and still proper to the 105 -- course than the J35 wishes to sail, or feels to be proper to the J35. Going to the room and telling the protest committee that the J35 refused to come up when they were burdened to do so, because the J105 naturally sails a higher course will not dilute the argument. Telling the PC that the J105 was sailing the boat in the manner that got them around the race course the fastest (and as if there were no other boats racing) is completely understandable, and tactically reasonable.

As recommended by A Piece of String, I won't blur the lines here with luffing rights and overtaking boats, since that was not the situation described.

Had the weather boat, while sailing DDW, chosen to flop the main onto starboard and have it fill, they could have put a stop to the situation immediately; instead, it seems they chose to refuse to come up when that was their other option.

I'm also still not following the part about not wanting to be on port when coming to a leeward mark that's going to be rounded to starboard, so can you explain your logic there?

 

[JeffR]

How do you think that tactics dilute your argument as a reasoning? I don't follow. The leeward boat is the ROW boat, the windward boat is burdened. As the ROW boat, the leeward boat has the right to take the weather boat up if they choose to do so. If the leeward boat is, for example (and not the one used in the original post), a J105, and the weather boat is a J35, the J35 has no right to refuse to come up because they feel the 105 sails a higher -- and still proper to the 105 -- course than the J35 wishes to sail, or feels to be proper to the J35. Going to the room and telling the protest committee that the J35 refused to come up when they were burdened to do so, because the J105 naturally sails a higher course will not dilute the argument. Telling the PC that the J105 was sailing the boat in the manner that got them around the race course the fastest (and as if there were no other boats racing) is completely understandable, and tactically reasonable.
As recommended by A Piece of String, I won't blur the lines here with luffing rights and overtaking boats, since that was not the situation described.

Had the weather boat, while sailing DDW, chosen to flop the main onto starboard and have it fill, they could have put a stop to the situation immediately; instead, it seems they chose to refuse to come up when that was their other option.

I'm also still not following the part about not wanting to be on port when coming to a leeward mark that's going to be rounded to starboard, so can you explain your logic there?

As I stated before, I half expected them to jibe to starboard, it would bearly have required a course change since they were DDW and they would have had all the rights even if I jibed inside them and since the overlap was not from clear astern they cuold have luffed me to the moon. Seems they just want to take the slow lazy way into the mark.

As for not wanting to coming to a leeward mark to be left to starboard on port, well it's a little more complicated of a takedown and the bigger turn would have you come out slower.

I think we have beat this horse close enougth to death now.

 

[Brass]

No, I completely understand that. My point was that if you mention a tactical advantage in your argument you dilute your best, fastest & most proper course argument. Nothing more.

Thanks Walter. Good point. I agree.

Brass

 

[JustDroppingBy]

As for not wanting to coming to a leeward mark to be left to starboard on port, well it's a little more complicated of a takedown and the bigger turn would have you come out slower.

It's a reverse Mexican, which I think was named a Canadian recently here, no?

Your logic appeared to be completely sound, the question about mechanics wasn't aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was.

 

[JeffR]

It's a reverse Mexican, which I think was named a Canadian recently here, no?
Your logic appeared to be completely sound, the question about mechanics wasn't aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was.

Pretty sure that is just a mexican on the starboard side. I think the recently named canadian starts out as a windward take down and ends up coning down on the leeward side. I enjoyed that thread but agreed clusterfuck was a more appropriate name because that is more likely out come.

 

[Vin]

Jaaaysus! If I was on the 29 that night I would have started throwing tissues over to you!!!

HA!

 

[Dawg]

It's a reverse Mexican, which I think was named a Canadian recently here, no?
Your logic appeared to be completely sound, the question about mechanics wasn't aimed at you, sorry if you thought it was.

Any reason you can't just call these types of take downs "Windward or Leeward Floaters"

That's really what they are.

There are only so many ways to take a kite down. You either peel it or float it. You either do it before the mark or right at the mark. You either do it before you turn or when you are turning the boat.

 

[JustDroppingBy]

Any reason you can't just call these types of take downs "Windward or Leeward Floaters"
That's really what they are.

There are only so many ways to take a kite down. You either peel it or float it. You either do it before the mark or right at the mark. You either do it before you turn or when you are turning the boat.

As luck would have it for our crew, I don't care what they do as long as it comes down

 

[JeffR]

Jaaaysus! If I was on the 29 that night I would have started throwing tissues over to you!!!
HA!

So you are saying that I would have caught up to and passed the J29 even if you were on it??

Not sure you would have had any tissues to spare, most of the noise was coming out of wcnann.

 

[tyler]

Don't race much big boat stuff, do ya?
Allowing people to do that is a recipe for disaster.

Actually I dont really race dinghys any more. Only big boats (B36.7/J105), about 4 times a week. I wasnt suggesting that he should've jibed. sorry.

sorry for the hijack/useless info.

 

[wcnann]

Throw a flag next time...... my other thought is how come you were going to go under them anyway? Your boat is obviously faster sailing the angles so why not just go up a little before you got to him and make him suck your dirty air

After re-reading the rule, I think Jeff did have a very good case as I was the tactician on the other boat and apparently may have been in error in thinking that it was our proper course that he needed to follow, not his own as he was the own who sailed up underneather us. In a former post, my thought is echoed in that what happens when a boat that typcially sails much higher sails up underneathe someone and then tries to take them up. Shouldn't it be the weather boat's proper course? If I had been on Jeff's boat, I don't think I would have put myself in that position. If he wanted to be on that side of the course, he easily could have taken our transom and gone that way. He then would have come back with a starboard pole and leeward rights regardless.

In hindsight and after re-reading the rules, we were wrong. Jeff kicked our asses that night anyway. Rest assured, I won't make that mistake twice and Jeff won't beat us next week.

 

[wcnann]

The real problem here is why was an S2 9.1 crossing gybes with a MHIB J29 half way through the race? CNann? Comment?

Boss admitted that he hadn't shaved the bottom for over a week and considering our usual speed up and down, that must have been the problem, all other variables being equaly.

 

[wcnann]

I didn't want to go over him becuase our next jibe was going to be for the mark to be left to starboard and I wanted the inside.
The people on this boat are not newbies, they have been racing longer than I have. They are leading this series, have a fast boat and usually sail very well.

Unfortunately, we sail from opposite sides of the bay so I don't have the opportunity to discuss it over beers. I am not sure I have a valid email for any of them. I know at least 1 of them is an anarchist and posted this rant hoping to get a reaction from them, or at least hear their interpretation of the rules.

Protests in this series are heard .... whenever, and never on a race night, typical it is weeks after the fact or at the end of the season when they need to reconcile the series score. It means all of us are going to have to spend a night resolving this thing.

If they are reading this, please look at ISAF cases 7 and 14. In both of these cases L protested W on rule 11 and W protested L on rule 17 and in both cases L was reinstated and W chucked. Both clearly spell out that L is allowed to sail the course she deems fastest way around the course.

The most curious part of all of this is why they were sailing so low in the first place, we both have medium displacement boats with masthead rigs and symetrical kites, but the wind was low and sailing deep was slow.

Jeff,

Sorry I didn't see or hear about this earlier. I agree that I was in the wrong after re-reading the rules.

As for sailing that low, until Tuesday night, no one ever questioned our downwind or upwind speed. In 8-12, I felt we were doing exactly what we should have been to sail to the mark in the shortest and fastest way possible.

C

 

[wcnann]

Yes I corrected my entry, but really its a saildrive and they have the semi balanced rudder to boot. They knew better, you should have put your pole through their kite.

He couldn't have done that Will. His bow never got forward of our chainplates. Ergo, by sailing below us, he would have parked himself in our lee and we both would have watched the rest of the fleet sail by. As it was, we did come up to match his angle at the time after a bit of a "debate" and he drifted back to the point where we broke the overlap. He did re-establish the overlap. We gybed on his transom, had a better rounding and passed him upwind...not enough to correct however ergo he got the bullet.

 

[wcnann]

Boy that's odd, they have the base MHIB rating ;-)

No Jeff, they don't. In fact, NBYA notified us that they had given us the wrong rating of 126 which we immediatley notified the race committee of altering the spring series results. We rate a 120, given by the NBYA PHRF committee. Let's not speak out of school.

So the first boat gybe sets and remains on port gybe. You round and run off on starboard for about 5 minutes, then gybe. By sailing a hotter angle you catch up to them and gain an inside overlap. You want them to sail up and they refuse. Do I have this correct?
You gained your overlap from clear astern and you expect them to come up?

Yes, but according to Rule 17, we had to honor "his" proper course. Doesn't seem right.

 

[wcnann]

The reason could be the guy's a dick. Not saying that's the case, but it could be.

Thanks!