Putin is losing his war badly, so bad he threatened nukes. What should the response be if he does?

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
I would hazard a guess about 90% of the planet lives on land some other ethnic or national group can say they have a historical claim to. Maybe the Russians should try and get Alaska back while they are at it, then the Inuits can get it back from them :rolleyes:
 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
10,130
3,276
Tasmania, Australia
I would hazard a guess about 90% of the planet lives on land some other ethnic or national group can say they have a historical claim to. Maybe the Russians should try and get Alaska back while they are at it, then the Inuits can get it back from them :rolleyes:

Don't try to explain shit like that to Meli, it's a total waste of time. It's like trying to explain sea level rise to people who have NFI that it's been rising for the last 20K years.

FKT
 

Go Left

Super Anarchist
4,988
444
Seattle
Don't try to explain shit like that to Meli, it's a total waste of time. It's like trying to explain sea level rise to people who have NFI that it's been rising for the last 20K years.

FKT
Or to people like you who can't distinguish between slow, incremental natural (literally glacial) cycles and rapid changes due to induced artificial (almost entirely human-derived) environmental inputs over exceedingly short time frames.

E.g. the difference between 20,000 years and 200 years. Meli may be wrong occassionally, we all are, but rarely two orders of magnitude wrong.
 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
10,130
3,276
Tasmania, Australia
Or to people like you who can't distinguish between slow, incremental natural (literally glacial) cycles and rapid changes due to induced artificial (almost entirely human-derived) environmental inputs over exceedingly short time frames.

Oh, I can distinguish the difference just fine; there's no doubt about the atmospheric CO2 level rises and who's responsible for THAT. I'm still waiting on people actually getting serious about addressing the issues. Until that happens, it's just noise. And maybe I'll get a deep waterfront place though so far the rate of change in sea level doesn't give me much hope of that.

Still comes back to the question though. WHAT level do you wish to freeze things like sea level rise, given most of us are living on the fringes of inundated land, and HOW do you propose to accomplish that?

What Meli goes on about WRT populations and 'ownership' of land is similar to claiming that the sea level should go back to what it was 20K years ago. Pointless and idiotic trying to pick a point in time...

FKT
 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
Oh, I can distinguish the difference just fine; there's no doubt about the atmospheric CO2 level rises and who's responsible for THAT. I'm still waiting on people actually getting serious about addressing the issues. Until that happens, it's just noise. And maybe I'll get a deep waterfront place though so far the rate of change in sea level doesn't give me much hope of that.

Still comes back to the question though. WHAT level do you wish to freeze things like sea level rise, given most of us are living on the fringes of inundated land, and HOW do you propose to accomplish that?

What Meli goes on about WRT populations and 'ownership' of land is similar to claiming that the sea level should go back to what it was 20K years ago. Pointless and idiotic trying to pick a point in time...

FKT
Forget the climate stuff, that goes in another thread.
Meli's idea that there is such a thing as an ethnic/racial/nationalist/religious/whatever claim on land YOU DON'T OWN because someone in your clan USED to live there is enormously destructive.
The world would be engulfed in constant warfare pretty much everywhere if everyone acted on this. Meli, you, and I all live on land taken by force from the natives by the British Empire back in the day. In the case of North America, there is also Spanish, French, and Russian ownership history. All you have to do is look at Israel to see how this works out, you have competing holy books and invisible friends all swearing your tribe is the tribe that owns this town, not those other guys :rolleyes:
Russia had their chance at keeping Crimea and Alaska too and they blew it both times. Too bad, sucks to be you.
 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
94,396
11,885
Earth
Forget the climate stuff, that goes in another thread.
Meli's idea that there is such a thing as an ethnic/racial/nationalist/religious/whatever claim on land YOU DON'T OWN because someone in your clan USED to live there is enormously destructive.
The world would be engulfed in constant warfare pretty much everywhere if everyone acted on this. Meli, you, and I all live on land taken by force from the natives by the British Empire back in the day. In the case of North America, there is also Spanish, French, and Russian ownership history. All you have to do is look at Israel to see how this works out, you have competing holy books and invisible friends all swearing your tribe is the tribe that owns this town, not those other guys :rolleyes:
Russia had their chance at keeping Crimea and Alaska too and they blew it both times. Too bad, sucks to be you.
Unless you are Cuban, in which case Jesse Helms and Dan Burton left a present for you…and the Pride of the GOP enacted the real jackpot portion of it.
 

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
10,130
3,276
Tasmania, Australia
Forget the climate stuff, that goes in another thread.
Meli's idea that there is such a thing as an ethnic/racial/nationalist/religious/whatever claim on land YOU DON'T OWN because someone in your clan USED to live there is enormously destructive.
The world would be engulfed in constant warfare pretty much everywhere if everyone acted on this. Meli, you, and I all live on land taken by force from the natives by the British Empire back in the day. In the case of North America, there is also Spanish, French, and Russian ownership history. All you have to do is look at Israel to see how this works out, you have competing holy books and invisible friends all swearing your tribe is the tribe that owns this town, not those other guys :rolleyes:
Russia had their chance at keeping Crimea and Alaska too and they blew it both times. Too bad, sucks to be you.

Agree with all of that.

Meli is truly, profoundly stupid and totally unwilling to read & learn. She actually thinks that Israel should be disbanded and the land returned to the 'original owners' who in this case she says are the current day Palestinians. I told her at the time, blame the defunct Ottoman Empire and then the equally defunct Roman Empire.

She won't get it.

FKT
 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,994
2,787
Melbourne
Forget the climate stuff, that goes in another thread.
Meli's idea that there is such a thing as an ethnic/racial/nationalist/religious/whatever claim on land YOU DON'T OWN because someone in your clan USED to live there is enormously destructive.
The world would be engulfed in constant warfare pretty much everywhere if everyone acted on this. Meli, you, and I all live on land taken by force from the natives by the British Empire back in the day. In the case of North America, there is also Spanish, French, and Russian ownership history. All you have to do is look at Israel to see how this works out, you have competing holy books and invisible friends all swearing your tribe is the tribe that owns this town, not those other guys :rolleyes:
Russia had their chance at keeping Crimea and Alaska too and they blew it both times. Too bad, sucks to be you.
aw come on, that's a little too black and white. Israel's gifted land is hardly supportive of your argument.
I'm just saying that if people are a more or less homogenised ethnic majority with relatives living that remember the "old country"and have their land taken by war or political dealings, they do have a right to claim the land back. Timor l'est?

our indig population are not in a majority, Doubt there are any people living who remember the "old country" in Texas. Israel? well really?
The rule of "might being right" may have been acceptable in 20thC now it is morally wrong. OTHERWISE WHY THE FUCK ARE WE HELPING UKRANE?:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
aw come on, that's a little too black and white. Israel's gifted land is hardly supportive of your argument.
I'm just saying that if people are a more or less homogenised ethnic majority with relatives living that remember the "old country"and have their land taken by war or political dealings, they do have a right to claim the land back. Timor l'est?

our indig population are not in a majority, Doubt there are any people living who remember the "old country" in Texas. Israel? well really?
The rule of "might being right" may have been acceptable in 20thC now it is morally wrong. OTHERWISE WHY THE FUCK ARE WE HELPING UKRANE?:rolleyes::rolleyes:
You are contradicting yourself. The last sentence is true. The idea that one can start wars because of being unhappy over where certain ethnic groups ended up is not a good idea at all and not supported in any kind of law or treaty that I know of. If that were so, Mexico should be invading Texas any time now :rolleyes:
 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,994
2,787
Melbourne
You are contradicting yourself. The last sentence is true. The idea that one can start wars because of being unhappy over where certain ethnic groups ended up is not a good idea at all and not supported in any kind of law or treaty that I know of. If that were so, Mexico should be invading Texas any time now :rolleyes:
Does Texas have an ethnic Mexican majority and have living residents who remember when Texas belonged to Mexico?
Meh, your not listening. Or maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts well. Never mind.
 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
Does Texas have an ethnic Mexican majority and have living residents who remember when Texas belonged to Mexico?
Meh, your not listening. Or maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts well. Never mind.
So Mexico had maybe 4-5 decades to have a "just war" over Texas? Say form 1845 to 1895 they had every right to attack and try and get it back? We'll overlook the fact that the way we got Texas was not any better for the moment, that was how everyone rolled from prehistory to 1945 or so. Back in the 19th century the world probably would have said Mexico could have a war, "Let'em have a fair go and see if they can get it back". The UN and the entire world order after 1945 was supposed to be all about ending the musical chairs, everyone got the country they were in now and wars of conquest because you wanted something, thought you were strong enough to take it, and could come up with some "reason" were OVER.
There was no asterisk with a "Unless Russians are involved, if there are Russians someplace then Russia can attack". Also note this is EXACTLY how Hitler started off, grabbing territories with a lot of ethnic Germans to "protect" them.
 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,994
2,787
Melbourne
So Mexico had maybe 4-5 decades to have a "just war" over Texas? Say form 1845 to 1895 they had every right to attack and try and get it back? We'll overlook the fact that the way we got Texas was not any better for the moment, that was how everyone rolled from prehistory to 1945 or so. Back in the 19th century the world probably would have said Mexico could have a war, "Let'em have a fair go and see if they can get it back". The UN and the entire world order after 1945 was supposed to be all about ending the musical chairs, everyone got the country they were in now and wars of conquest because you wanted something, thought you were strong enough to take it, and could come up with some "reason" were OVER.
There was no asterisk with a "Unless Russians are involved, if there are Russians someplace then Russia can attack". Also note this is EXACTLY how Hitler started off, grabbing territories with a lot of ethnic Germans to "protect" them.
bolded 1..yep.
bolded 2 except if you were Jewish or Palestinian?

Seriously. I'm so over the bullshit spin on what's a 21st century "Just" invasion.
Putin's a liar about Ukraine, Bush was a liar about Iraq.

Naive little me swallowed all the hype that we were in Afghanistan to "save the women and children"

Fool me once..
 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
bolded 1..yep.
bolded 2 except if you were Jewish or Palestinian?

Seriously. I'm so over the bullshit spin on what's a 21st century "Just" invasion.
Putin's a liar about Ukraine, Bush was a liar about Iraq.

Naive little me swallowed all the hype that we were in Afghanistan to "save the women and children"

Fool me once..
Yeah, I pointed out what a mess that part of the Middle East is, an absolutely prime example of how fighting over my tribe was here first never ends and no treaty overrules what my invisible friend says.
 

ShortForBob

Super Anarchist
34,994
2,787
Melbourne
Yeah, I pointed out what a mess that part of the Middle East is, an absolutely prime example of how fighting over my tribe was here first never ends and no treaty overrules what my invisible friend says.
Except the Palestinians didn't fight a war and lose, they were evicted/advised to get out of the way AFTER WW2 and are still sitting in refugee camps.
like I said, Meh. it's all about land and money, or these days, land and gas and oil. Seriously. No one would give a flying fuck about who was "owning" Crimea ecept it's Russia and it's on the Black sea. that's America's duck pond. Keep OUT!
Meh again.

Goodnight
 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
29,498
4,266
New Oak City
It seems like Putin kinda sucks almost as badly as his protege from NY, eh Pootsuckers?


Well, a lot of our Vietnam War draft dodgers fled the US to Canada.
So many that Carter even pardoned them en mass.
Some people would call that war an invasion. If you want to get legalistic
I'm sure Putin can produce someone from Luhansk asking for support
against Kiev's persecution of ethnic Russians.

One of the advantages of a draft is that it allows, even forces people
who don't like the war to vote with their feet. Indeed Vietnam anti-war protests ended
not with the end of the war but with the end of the draft.

Instead, Iraq+Afghanistan recycled the same sad sack volunteers
to keep domestic grumbling to a minimum.
A draft would hopefully result in fewer really stupid wars.
 
Last edited:

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
94,396
11,885
Earth
Well, a lot of our Vietnam War draft dodgers fled the US to Canada.
So many that Carter even pardoned them en mass.
Some people would call that war an invasion. If you want to get legalistic
I'm sure Putin can produce someone from Luhansk asking for support
against Kiev's persecution of ethnic Russians.

One of the advantages of a draft is that it allows, even forces people
who don't like the war to vote with their feet. Indeed Vietnam anti-war protests ended
not with the end of the war but with the end of the draft.

Instead, Iraq+Afghanistan recycled the same sad sack volunteers
to keep domestic grumbling to a minimum.
A draft would hopefully result in fewer really stupid wars.
I could see that working but there would need to be more formalized procedures in place to ensure that the crotch fruit of the Best Americans are not thrown into the meat grinder used to launder borrowed money and redistribute it to those Best Americans. Otherwise it kinda defeats the purpose.
 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,276
5,186
Kent Island!
Most of my serving friends do NOT want to be stuck with people that don't want to be there, but OTOH I bet Gulf War II would have been a non-starter with the draft in place and Afghanistan would have been over once OBL was killed or got a rental house in Pakistan :rolleyes:
 




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