Putin is losing his war badly, so bad he threatened nukes. What should the response be if he does?

D

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And the Russian people actually want that. They’ve just about always considered themselves to be a European country, in my opinion they are more than they’re not.
 

Olsonist

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china is backing Putin because they see if Putin goes away its pretty likely the replacement will bend more towards the west and their cheap energy goes away and they loose a fellow bully on the world economic playground and a key ally on the UN sec council

I don’t think China is backing Russia at all so much as just continuing to trade (at their terms) with Russia. They were backing them to a degree at the beginning but were dismayed by the failure of Russia and the unity of the West.
 

Go Left

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I think/hope in the end anyone associated with Putin's regime will be purged and a move towards a more European democracy could emerge from the ashes of the old Russia.
Trying to break the pattern of 1200 years of Rus/Muscovite autocracies of various and sundry sorts - War lords, Tsarist aristocracies, mad men, mass murderers, dictators and plutocrats.

The Europeans have at least 200 years of trying different sorts of democracy with more than a little backsliding, more than every so often.

Not much hope here for a "Russian Spring".
 

Raz'r

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I think/hope in the end anyone associated with Putin's regime will be purged and a move towards a more European democracy could emerge from the ashes of the old Russia.
I don't buy it. Russians aren't European. By desire. They like their strong central czarist gov't.
 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
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I don't buy it. Russians aren't European. By desire. They like their strong central czarist gov't.
Russians aren't that different to anyone else. They just want to live their lives like everyone else.

Their system of government, both historical and contemporary, has meant they've needed to be relatively compliant to live.
 

Raz'r

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Russians aren't that different to anyone else. They just want to live their lives like everyone else.

Their system of government, both historical and contemporary, has meant they've needed to be relatively compliant to live.
Did you catch Putin’s speeches on what it means to be Russian?
 

phillysailor

Super Anarchist
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I don't buy it. Russians aren't European. By desire. They like their strong central czarist gov't.
I think many Russians don't know any better. Their news and their worldview are shaped by Putin and a long line of other dictators. More and more are cosmopolitan, though, and the oligarch class thought they were exceptional... only to realize the laws of gravity and chemistry laid waste to their ability to breathe like any other human.

The bargain Putin made with the Russians used to include internet freedoms and the ability to make a profit off those dupes in the west. He has the most to fear from the young and somewhat educated... those making a break for the borders right now.

The simple reindeer herdsmen and hunter/gatherer sorts of Siberia? Those are being rounded up in huge swaths by this mobilization, valuable strong guys with patriotism left over from the Great Patriotic War and outdoor skills.

Putin is therefore pissing off all the men in his country. Those who want to support him find he is screwing up. Those who got a taste of western freedoms and fun are now cut off from it. Those who love the fatherland and are patriotic are gonna be cannon fodder (inadequate training and equipment, off to fight for.... what, exactly?)

Putin's got a leadership problem. He's gonna have to clamp down hard, and its hard to put the genie back in the lantern.

Popcorn. Hopefully it doesn't glow.
 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
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Did you catch Putin’s speeches on what it means to be Russian?
No. Was it anything like trumps speech about American patriots?

Listening to politicians telling me what it means to be me is not a good use of my time.

Actually listening to politicians generally is not a good use of my time. It's what they do that makes me takes notice.
 

Steam Flyer

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And the Russian people actually want that. They’ve just about always considered themselves to be a European country, in my opinion they are more than they’re not.

Actually, they don't. Russia has zero tradition of peaceful transfer of power and stable democracy.

That was one of the reforms Gorbachev was trying to implement. It didn't work. The average people feared being preyed on by oligarchs, and the oligarchs hated having their greed thwarted. That's how Putin came to power, promising the workers "Yes you'll be getting fucked but you will still have a roof over your head, plumbing somewhere within walking distance, and bread you can afford if you're willing to wait in line long enough" and promised the oligarchs that if they kept the trains running on time, they could plunder away.

That seems to the route the US is heading, I saw a poll today that said fewer than 50% of USAnians agree that politicians should be bound to abide by the results of elections.
 

Chris in Santa Cruz CA

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I don’t think China is backing Russia at all so much as just continuing to trade (at their terms) with Russia. They were backing them to a degree at the beginning but were dismayed by the failure of Russia and the unity of the West.
yes, I guess they have backed away from public support a bit. They must also be dismayed that now they know they will get serious push back from a coalition of their customers if they try the same thing in Taiwan.
 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
20,416
2,375
Actually, they don't. Russia has zero tradition of peaceful transfer of power and stable democracy.

That was one of the reforms Gorbachev was trying to implement. It didn't work. The average people feared being preyed on by oligarchs, and the oligarchs hated having their greed thwarted. That's how Putin came to power, promising the workers "Yes you'll be getting fucked but you will still have a roof over your head, plumbing somewhere within walking distance, and bread you can afford if you're willing to wait in line long enough" and promised the oligarchs that if they kept the trains running on time, they could plunder away.

That seems to the route the US is heading, I saw a poll today that said fewer than 50% of USAnians agree that politicians should be bound to abide by the results of elections.
I think what your describing is just plain old corruption.
Accepting it as a means to just get on with life is understandable.

It doesn't mean that they wouldn't embrace a more western/european/liberal lifestyle if they fell into one.
 

Chris in Santa Cruz CA

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I don't buy it. Russians aren't European. By desire. They like their strong central czarist gov't.
Maybe. Maybe. But the Russian paranoia runs deep, they have been invaded by “the west” on a not infrequent basis over hundreds of years.
The west has only invaded brown people since Hitler. The days of conquest and control are over except for China and Russia. Just being global idiots with their foreign policies and being enamored by the concept of control of larger amounts of the planet.
 
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