Question About Cruising Sailcloth

[Elegua]

Ok, someone nuked the thread just before the super computer was about to deliver the answer....

In answer to @estarzinger...

I'm surprised the number of people that know is so few.  I probably did not provide enough detail to get a good answer. 

• Size: No more than 135%, or 51M2 on an 15.5M I measurement.  I'm thinking about making it smaller, say 125% or 115%, but that might mean I would need a light wind sail to cover, which might be a better answer anyway?
  
• The current sail is an 135% Banks carbon scrim with two outer layers of taffeta. It's pretty heavy and over 10 years old. I sent it to North for repairs and they kindly sent me  quote for a new sail. North quoted NPL Tour Xi Grey NorLam Xi09 which is pretty close to what I have now? In any case I'd be surprised if the old sail lasted more than another season before disassembling itself.  A replacement needs to be found. 
  
• Wind Range: North did the usual all-purpose 0-24kts.  I'm currently start reefing over 15kts true. By over 20kts true I'm on my staysail. I tend not to sail with the genoa reefed which leaves a hole in the sailplan. I probably should do so more. 
  
• UV:  I'd assume a lot. Part of me wants to start with an Atlantic circuit. Part of me wants to head for the Caribbean and through the canal. Most likely the shakedown would be north from Maine.  I say these words in public because I'm tired of talking about if and when...
  
• Cost: I'm willing to pay the equivalent number of good Dacron sails I'd need to buy to maintain the same shape. DEU - Dacron Equivalent Units. For example if the sail could keep it's shape the same amount of time for which I would need to buy 3 good quality Dacron sails, I'd be willing to pay that, possibly a little more since I avoid the hassle. 
  
• The boat is not fast, but I do like sailing efficiently.
  

There have been a number of threads about this topic, but nothing really conclusive. 

 

[estarzinger]

I unfortunately dont have access to the super computer for the answer.

you are probably not really going to get much extra life span out of a typical mylar laminate than a good Dacron sail.  The laminate might well have better shape over that span and then explode, while the Dacron would more slowly but steadily degrade.  But you would replace them at about the same point (if you are picky about shape - the Dacron one will probably go longer if you are less picky about shape).

But you are unfortunately near a size/load boundary where dacron starts to struggle, so I understand why you have a laminate and why north is suggesting another.

Now if you went way way upmarket and got a volvo spec 3di, you would probably get extra lifespan, but at such a high cost I dont know how the 'dacron unit' breakeven would work out.

Making this sail smaller, and getting a light air sail (perhaps on a rope luff furler) would make all this easier - but would ofc increase your sail handling and selection complexity and costs.

btw - if Tom Davis is still around North, and you can talk to him (say hi from me) and he could give you a pretty informed and honest answer to this.  He used to run North cloth - dont know where he is today.

 

[Elegua]

Sorry, the supercomputer was a bad reference toThe Hitchiker's Guide... OP must have deleted it.  

I bought a Dacron main 2 years ago. It's a nice sail as new. It's made with a "good" material, 8.62 HA marblehead, but I can already tell the leech is struggling a bit. 

Are products like Stratus and Tour typical mylar laminates? They have 3-4 different flavors that are a bit hard for the unwashed to tell apart.  Even 3Di for cruising comes in Dacron, some Dacron hybrid and "UltraPE/Aramid Hybrid".  How far up do you need to go to get to the good stuff? 

 

[Elegua]

I'm totally willing to get a light air drifter type sail.  The 135% generally works everywhere but is generally also suboptimal everywhere. 

And thanks for your answer. Very helpful.

 

[estarzinger]

Are products like Stratus and Tour typical mylar laminates? They have 3-4 different flavors that are a bit hard for the unwashed to tell apart.  Even 3Di for cruising comes in Dacron, some Dacron hybrid and "UltraPE/Aramid Hybrid".  How far up do you need to go to get to the good stuff? 

The below is just my opinion, based only on antidotal evidence. I dont have the sort of facts I would want to be able to offer a real 'answer'. 

mylar is pretty much mylar.  There are some differences in lamination processes, but the mylar will still most likely be the failure point.

With 3di, yea, you actually want to go to like ENDURANCE 760.  My understanding is they have struggled to make consistent durability in the down market versions. And make sure they spec the weight up if there is any question - there is a bit of a tendency to go too light.  I always asked for the volvo spec (obviously obsolete terminology now but they would know what you mean).

 

[Ron Swanson]

HydraNet

 

[Elegua]

HydraNet

Ok, can you share why? 

 

[Ron Swanson]

HydraNet is woven dyneema. Stong and light, holds shape much better than dacron, UV resistant. Reports of yachts getting 50k miles on them. I put 20k on mine and while they need some repairs, they are still fine for cruising even upwind. Finally, you can stitch them up with a needle and thread if you ever need to.

 

[Zonker]

Hydranet is partly Dacron, partly Dyneema. Only the radial stuff has enough Dyneema to matter. That said we did a circumnavigation+ on our Hydranet tri-radial genoa (48m2) 40K miles and it still had very good shape. We abused used the hell out it. It was 9 oz so probably a bit heavier than you would have specified for a 0-20 knot sail but the local Quantum guy who made it said he knew cats and "trust me". He was correct, heavier was more durable.

Much of the miles were downwind in trades but there were times when the water was flat and we were sailing upwind in 20+ knots and doing 10-12 upwind and it was just fun to go that fast (until my wife would scream at me a bit that it was time to furl the sail as we were heading into the anchorage...)

Certainly no UV issues, but did had to redo the webbing at head at least twice due to UV.

On paper it's specs aren't that awesome but in practice it does seem to work very well.

 

[estarzinger]

On paper it's specs aren't that awesome 

This has been what makes me reluctant to recommend it. I suspect that good sail design is more important with this to avoid the 'average' bias characteristics from wrecking the sail. You do definitely need to go with (the more expensive) radial stuff.  The other/regular/crosscut is pretty much just expensive dacron with a little ripstop.

I do like DP . . . have had good luck with their cloth - great code sail from their CZ cloth, good working sails from DYS.

 

[CapDave]

The below is just my opinion, based only on antidotal evidence. I dont have the sort of facts I would want to be able to offer a real 'answer'. 

mylar is pretty much mylar.  There are some differences in lamination processes, but the mylar will still most likely be the failure point.

With 3di, yea, you actually want to go to like ENDURANCE 760.  My understanding is they have struggled to make consistent durability in the down market versions. And make sure they spec the weight up if there is any question - there is a bit of a tendency to go too light.  I always asked for the volvo spec (obviously obsolete terminology now but they would know what you mean).

The "antidotal" is always - more money. 

The trouble with laminated sails is the glue fails at the mylar. The more hot humid weather you have the sail in, the faster it fails. Our boat was kept in South Florida and Bahamas before we bought her. We had Ullman laminate sails, the main had a catastrophic failure at 4.2 years, about a year after we bought the boat. Huge patch and some smaller ones bought us a few months. The headsails of the same age started showing some delamination, but lasted a bit longer. Of course we stopped sailing due to Covid, so that helped. My theory is that the main in the lazybag gets and stays wetter than furled headsails, hence earlier failure.

We went with the 3Di Ocean 700 ("Ultra PE/Aramid Hybrid"). I can't really tell you the granular trade-offs with the Endurance 760 ("Ultra PE/Aramid"), but we don't race our boat so everyone we spoke with steered us to the Ocean variation as being a better price/value/performance choice. It cost roughly 2X the laminated version - I'll be happy if I get 1.5X the lifetime, ecstatic if I get 2X. Since we live on the boat full time and travel continuously (or we will be again soon!), having to schedule in sail replacement is a headache.

So far with local sailing around Antigua the sails are settling in very nicely. With the main we found it's quite a bit stiffer than the laminated sail, so we had trouble fitting it in the lazy bag. The bag was end of life anyway, so we made the new one a little bigger - problem solved. 

 

[2flit]

Another VOTE here for Hydranet Radial.

Our Roller Blade  and Main are 9 OZ and - though North sail Lofts cast non-stop dispersions upon it every time I enter one - the stuff has been awesome for us thus far. We had ours sewn by "Main Sailing Partners" five years ago. We have used the jib up to 45 knots to windward  on a 400 mile tack at wind speeds continuously above 35 kn.... and I just can't believe how good the shape is, I am fairly sure any laminate out there would have blown out by now. The stuff seems near rock solid for a fast cruising boat like ours, after five year s of use, we still turned in an over 300+ mile day on that jib and main working to windward the whole time only just last month.  I can't really say enough good things about our experience with it thus far

 

[Whinging Pom]

Oyster Yachts reckon radial hydranet is good for a circumnavigation.  I'm very pleased with my hydranet main and would have no hesitation ordering another one.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Another vote for radial Hydranet. In our eighth year with ours: first three years weekend cruising and occasional racing, last five cruising full time GOM-Bahamas. Still holding her head up quite high. Our track from a recent weekend below.

I am however watching with interest some friends who recently purchased a set of 3di, which may be my next sails at some point 

 

[yoyo]

I am starting down the same process of determining what to buy in a year or two from now.  In the process of doing some online reading I stumbled on a sailcloth I have never heard of...... SAILCLOTH | nautosphere ..... Nautosphere Sailcloth - Zoom Sails

Does anyone know / have experience with Nautosphere Voyager sailcloth?  They sure make it sounds good on paper.

 

[Elegua]

What's might be the price delta between 3Di 760/780 and a radial hydranet? 

Sadly, Maine Sailing Partners is no more with the owner's retirement. 

 

[Bryanjb]

I was talking with Peter Grimm a couple of weeks ago about our sail material choices, he was surprised we used radial Hydrant.  I explained that we like it because it reefs well, doesn't mildew and while it stretches it's acceptable to us since we are cruising not racing.  So far, we have about 15,000 miles on the main and it's held up well.  The most wind it's seen is about 55 over the deck sailing upwind, triple reefed.  We're hoping to get 25~30,000 miles from it.  We quoted North and Doyle, the 3di was about $56k, the Hydrant was half.

 

[OCS]

sailmaker of 40+ years, Radial Hydranet!

 

[Not My Real Name]

Ok, can you share why? 

HydraNet is woven dyneema. Stong and light, holds shape much better than dacron, UV resistant. Reports of yachts getting 50k miles on them. I put 20k on mine and while they need some repairs, they are still fine for cruising even upwind. Finally, you can stitch them up with a needle and thread if you ever need to.

Hydranet is partly Dacron, partly Dyneema. Only the radial stuff has enough Dyneema to matter. That said we did a circumnavigation+ on our Hydranet tri-radial genoa (48m2) 40K miles and it still had very good shape. We abused used the hell out it. It was 9 oz so probably a bit heavier than you would have specified for a 0-20 knot sail but the local Quantum guy who made it said he knew cats and "trust me". He was correct, heavier was more durable.

Much of the miles were downwind in trades but there were times when the water was flat and we were sailing upwind in 20+ knots and doing 10-12 upwind and it was just fun to go that fast (until my wife would scream at me a bit that it was time to furl the sail as we were heading into the anchorage...)

Certainly no UV issues, but did had to redo the webbing at head at least twice due to UV.

On paper it's specs aren't that awesome but in practice it does seem to work very well.

Definitely a fan of Hydranet here. We started with two crosscut sails which did well, and bought a Hydranet radial a few years back that still looks new. Though we've not done much sailing since the pandemic, so the miles are low.

It's my understanding from chats with DP that the radial and crosscut cloths are quite different. When we were first getting new sails back around 2006/7 the radial was considerably more expensive than the corsscut. When we got this new main, it was closer to an 10% upcharge instead of 20-30% a decade+ ago.

That is NOT the crosscut Hyrdranet headsail, but it is the radial main. Nice looking sail, but I am biased.