Race tracking

[TJSoCal]

fine in principle.., but not in practice...

getting outside routing assistance means planning to cheat - most people won't do that.

but.., clicking on a website.., that's just too easy and too tempting for some.., the tracking data is so valuable that the temptation will be very strong

in any case, even if everyone _did_ manage to resist the temptation.., there would still be a widespread belief that some people did look at it - "how did they know to change course and go over there?.., there is only one way they could have known.." 

there would be so much questioning of the compliance with that rule, that it would be poisonous.

You could be right.

Maybe something like 2 hour delay until Friday midnight or maybe Saturday 0600, and then switch to real time? By that time the really fast boats should be finished, and everyone else fairly well committed - if someone made a major change of plan based on tracking there would be a price to pay.

Even with delay, post-race analysis would be really fascinating.

 

[Sebyseb]

Trackers are great, the onlyway to get them interested really.

For RORC races, ontly the Fastnet has a tracker, it doesn't however need delays as AIS is mandatory so you know always know where your competition is and where they are going.

Not sure delay is that important on  relatively short races, it does change tactics but not really strategy (in tidal waters) as you shouldreally have yours ready rather than following the 'good' guys.

 

[Bill Gibbs]

nosa should also archive race results further back than a few years, it would be cool to see results from before the internet age.

I agree and said so.  Turns out that they do.  On the main page its under the NOSA menu, not the N2E menu.  Go figure.

 

[TJSoCal]

I agree and said so.  Turns out that they do.  On the main page its under the NOSA menu, not the N2E menu.  Go figure.

If it's the page I found it only goes back to 2005. I'd love to see results from my first couple of N2E races in the late 80's

 

[Bill Gibbs]

If it's the page I found it only goes back to 2005. I'd love to see results from my first couple of N2E races in the late 80's

I was told 2005 was the first electronic year.  Prior years were paper in the archives.

 

[TJSoCal]

I was told 2005 was the first electronic year.  Prior years were paper in the archives.

Scanner... 

 

[Alcatraz5768]

Predict wind tracker gets used here a bit and seems to work. When wifey worked in an office, her whole office got interested and wanted regular updates and so on. 

 

[Arthur Peltzer]

Many SI's permit a boat to stop transmitting AIS a few hours after the start, Boats I sail on have a switch for this.

As a navigator.., un-delayed tracking with frequent position updates is a pain in the ass...

There is so much information that i can not afford to miss any of it.., which means i can barely get off the laptop, or put the tablet down for the whole race. I hardly sleep even without having to monitor the tracking..., now I have to stay awake monitoring the position updates? 

Some owners hate the un-delayed tracking too - they can spend $50-100K for a big offshore race.  imagine they are out front.., and sail into a light spot.., and boats behind sail around them because the tracking shows boats in the front being slow. you now have owners who are pissed and wondering if it's worth doing the race next time...

the race is (or should be) mostly organized for the _racers_.., not for the people watching onshore. 

i really don't care if for a spectator, there is "nothing worse" than delayed tracking.

On the other hand, owners that can not spend $50-100K for a race will not mind if they can see boats ahead in a light spot, and you want them considering the next race too, maybe even more. You watch boats sailing into light spots in short daylight races too, so it is a normal part of the sailing game.

Owners that can spend that kind of of money can also buy online wind prediction, online AIS positions and sophisticated radar equipment to track weather and opposition, they have that advantage anyway. If they sail into a light spot they probably have hired the wrong pro navigator and pre race weather consultant. Real time tracking just levels that playing field a bit, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

[us7070]

Owners that can spend that kind of of money can also buy online wind prediction, online AIS positions and sophisticated radar equipment to track weather and opposition, they have that advantage anyway.

referring to tracking.., they don't have that advantage anyway...

you can't buy "online AIS positions" when the boats have their AIS transmitter turned off - as most do in say the Bermuda race...

radar is pretty limited  - most racing yachts have their dome pretty low.., and sailboats aren't great targets. also it's harder to know which boat is which - it's hard to keep track of which boats are your competitors. it doesn't provide anything like the information provided by tracking or AIS, and i don't feel nearly the need to monitor it 24/7 as i do live tracking reports.

i really don't think that a delay of say 4 hours on a ~4 day race degrades the spectator experience much.., and anyway, like i said, the race isn't for them.  it could go live when a boat gets within a certain distance of the destination - say 25 miles from North East Breakers in the Bermuda race

 

[Bill Gibbs]

As I understand it, on-boat internet is needed to view tracking.  That means within cell data range, or your boat has Satellite Internet.  How many PHRF boats run Satellite Internet?  Much of N2E is outside cell range.

 

[Hitchhiker]

Scanner... 

Looks like you've volunteered!

 

[us7070]

As I understand it, on-boat internet is needed to view tracking.  That means within cell data range, or your boat has Satellite Internet.  How many PHRF boats run Satellite Internet?  Much of N2E is outside cell range.

yes - you need some sort of data connection

cellular close to land.., and satellite away from land. 

My comments are general, and not directed at the N2E race - that race is kind of short for tracking anyway...

A satellite phone is now required for the bermuda race - so all boats have satellite data capability.

you don't need a fast connection to view the Yellow Brick tracking data, because you don't do it by looking at the YB website, or the tracker embedded in whatever website the race in question is operating.

instead, on the boat, we download tiny text files, that are easily downloaded even over the 2.4kbs data speed of the various iridium devices - the GO, or the handsets -  that most boats opt to use.

Expedition will import and display these files directly - and that's how most people do it, but in principle, once you have downloaded the file you can display them anyway you want

 

[Bill Gibbs]

Looks like you've volunteered!

I can get you a key to the archive storage locker.  The answers are in there.  Maybe.

 

[TJSoCal]

I can get you a key to the archive storage locker.  The answers are in there.  Maybe.

If you can mail me copies of  about 10 years worth I'd be happy to do some scanning. You could probably crowdsource the entire task out pretty easily

 

[Meat Wad]

I wonder how many would bail into SD if they saw they were getting hammered?

I think a 1 hour delay for a 24 hour race is good. 
It would allow the slower fleets to see the pressure of the faster fleets and make better choices with faster finishes.

 

[TJSoCal]

I wonder how many would bail into SD if they saw they were getting hammered?

I think a 1 hour delay for a 24 hour race is good. 
It would allow the slower fleets to see the pressure of the faster fleets and make better choices with faster finishes.

Other than Dr. Laura and DC? (Sorry, couldn't resist - they were both in our class in various years and dropped out...)

 

[Robin]

I am old school so I would love to go back to the day when unless you were in physical sight of another sailboat you knew nothing of their position or they of yours.  That said, the cat is out of the bag never to be put back, so lets have tracking available in real time without delay and require AIS for all open water races of any distance.  Technology advances being what they are satellite access to the internet will soon be available at a more reasonable price.

Robin

 

[Meat Wad]

I am old school so I would love to go back to the day when unless you were in physical sight of another sailboat you knew nothing of their position or they of yours.  That said, the cat is out of the bag never to be put back, so lets have tracking available in real time without delay and require AIS for all open water races of any distance.  Technology advances being what they are satellite access to the internet will soon be available at a more reasonable price.

Robin

How exactly does AIS work?
Do you need an AIS Transmitter?
I only see receivers.

Tech is great, as long as it is affordable.
Add Marine or Medical to the name it it becomes unaffordable very quickly.
 

 

[Bill Gibbs]

I bet there were sailors against GPS because it removed nav skills from a race.

AIS requires a transmitter if you want to show up to other ships.  A receiver if you want to see others.  Best with both, and a chart plotter.  But not cheap.  Normal AIS is VHF, limited range offshore.  Not a sat tracker replacement for that reason.

tracking is very popular.

0 time delay does change the race a bit.

time delay opinions are split.

 

[Don]

The major reason for delays in yacht tracking during offshore races is data transmission cost via satellite.

Provided standard mobile network coverage can be used the transmission of yacht data is only limited by signal strength.

On my 11 metre Reichel Pugh we transmit all sailing instrument NMEA outputs via a Rossco system which has built in 3g/4g mobile transmission, GPS, RF, WiFi and data processing/storage. The system data stream is constant so the update of the graphics and analytics is limited only by the Sailing instruments NMEA 0180, 0182, or 0183HS baud rates e.g. default 4800 or 9600. AIS used NMEA-0183HS at 38400. The newer NMEA-2000 is faster.

This provides post race performance analytics and race graphics accessible via the internet (subscription login). The Rossco WiFi provides total data transmission on board to allow connection to 3rd party apps like iRegatta, etc. If the telecoms signal drops out the data is batch filed and uploaded once signal is back up.

The important point with the Rossco system is that yacht data is encrypted and compressed prior to transmission and cannot be read by any other vessels. The data is unencrypted and extracted at the Rossco server (data base) for analysis and storage.