Racer/cruisers in light air

[Vespucci]

When comparisons are sought about "what is the best racer/cruiser" someone invariably makes a comment that "boat x" is sticky in light winds.

So I have a specific request for some help in comparing boats for their light wind performance.

The boats I'm interested in are the usual suspects, I.e J/109, J/120, Ben36.7, Ben10r, C&C 110 (sprit or not) etc.

The sad truth is that in Seattle Area the winds a really light in the summer months, so 'stickiness' is a big factor influencing the enjoyment of sailing.

Comments?

 

[corkob]

How about the A35 or the X35.

 

[2high2tight]

sticky is more about the driver than the boat -- and knowing your boat and how to keep it moving nicely. like good weight placement, slow movements, soft pointing, etc.

Of the boats I have a 36.7 and I find it reasonable -- upwind --in light wind -- and I grew up on lakes so I've got light and shifty encoded in my DNA. However, downwind, its not so hot cause of the small kites. I have found the 109 to be the opposite...small jib gives it fits upwind, but the kites more than make the difference downwind.

The J120 is a notoriously sluggish light air boat that really lights up whenthe wind picks up. Conversely, I have found the old J35 to be a spectacular light air boat -- along with the Soverals and the other lightweights like it.

 

[Ishtarsdog]

We race regularly in the PNW against J-109s, 36.7s, and a C&C110 with a sprit. I have a cruiser/racer that fits the "sticky in light air" description. So we are sensitive to the problem.

At one time or another we have been beaten by all of the designs you mention. In the light stuff, the J-109 seems to win the most. There is a reasonable class of good sailors between the Canadian and American boats, so there is sometimes a one design option as well.

If you are looking at boats that rate in the 50s instead of the 70s-80s, then take a look at the 40.7, which should be about the same price point.

Local race results are pretty telling. The 109 won Grand Prix. One also won the VanIsle 360, and Southern Straits. Snake Eyes and Something Wicked (both 40.7s) have won a lot of major races. Hard to argue with the success of either design in the Northwest.

If you race year round, it isn't just the light air that matters. In the fall, winter, and spring we have plenty of breeze. In those conditions, you might want to consider what the most versatile boat is. The Express 37 comes to mind.

We chose a Farr 1220. We would not trade it for any of the boats mentioned...but different boats for different folks. Not a light air boat, either.

 

[atwinda]

When comparisons are sought about "what is the best racer/cruiser" someone invariably makes a comment that "boat x" is sticky in light winds.

So I have a specific request for some help in comparing boats for their light wind performance.

The boats I'm interested in are the usual suspects, I.e J/109, J/120, Ben36.7, Ben10r, C&C 110 (sprit or not) etc.

The sad truth is that in Seattle Area the winds a really light in the summer months, so 'stickiness' is a big factor influencing the enjoyment of sailing.

Comments?

There is a 10r here in sd that wins our notoriously light beer cans every summer...

 

[Crash]

sticky is more about the driver than the boat -- and knowing your boat and how to keep it moving nicely. like good weight placement, slow movements, soft pointing, etc.

Of the boats I have a 36.7 and I find it reasonable -- upwind --in light wind -- and I grew up on lakes so I've got light and shifty encoded in my DNA. However, downwind, its not so hot cause of the small kites. I have found the 109 to be the opposite...small jib gives it fits upwind, but the kites more than make the difference downwind.

The J120 is a notoriously sluggish light air boat that really lights up whenthe wind picks up. Conversely, I have found the old J35 to be a spectacular light air boat -- along with the Soverals and the other lightweights like it.

If not racing OD, nothing prevents a J/109 from carrying a light 155 and a PHRF max chute (120-138 sqm vs. 108 sqm for OD) chute...which is likely worth the 6 sec penalty in light air venues...Of the racer/cruisers you mentioned the 109 is a pretty good light air boat (I had one on the Chesapeake Bay)...

 

[Bob Perry]

Stickyness may be mostly a wetted surface thing. Wetted surface is very important in light air. Knowing how to heel your boat over and change fore and aft trim to minimize wetted surface might help. I tell people "Get the pointy end in and the fat end out." Like a Laser.

 

[Poda]

Stickyness may be mostly a wetted surface thing. Wetted surface is very important in light air. Knowing how to heel your boat over and change fore and aft trim to minimize wetted surface might help. I tell people "Get the pointy end in and the fat end out." Like a Laser.

Same problem on my type of boat. By modern standards it has a fair amount of wetted surface, combined with a frac rig means it can be a little sticky in the light stuff. Relocating the batteries from under the cockpit to mid-ships helped, as did minimizing the amount of people in the cockpit. Removing the outboard off the bracket (4 stroke 5hp) and putting it in the cabin over the keel makes a huge difference also. But then, at 2700lbs and 24 ft we're substantially easier to trim to the boat fore/aft, and we can heel the boat simply by shifting a body to the leeward rail.

 

[Squalamax]

When comparisons are sought about "what is the best racer/cruiser" someone invariably makes a comment that "boat x" is sticky in light winds.

So I have a specific request for some help in comparing boats for their light wind performance.

The boats I'm interested in are the usual suspects, I.e J/109, J/120, Ben36.7, Ben10r, C&C 110 (sprit or not) etc.

The sad truth is that in Seattle Area the winds a really light in the summer months, so 'stickiness' is a big factor influencing the enjoyment of sailing.

Comments?

There are good light air boats and there are great light air boats. The 109 even with genoa and PHRF kite, is OK in the light in my experience.

As someone else mentioned, an X35 is a great light air boat, as well as a J111, from my experience.

For older boats, a Soveral 33 is very good in the light.

 

[From the Helm]

1d35 is great light air boat. M32 is a great light air boat too.

 

[Crash]

1d35 is great light air boat. M32 is a great light air boat too.

He did say racer/cruiser...which kinda takes a 1D35 and M32 out of the running... B)

 

[Jambalaya]

J109 is remarkably good in light air despite all the furniture, especially upwind even with just the #3 (with in-haulers) better obviously with #1 which sheets very nicely round the shrouds. I'd also second the X35/J111/40.7 suggestions.

The other dreaded factor is the rating system of course, but if we start that debate again here the thread will descend into the usual slanging match.

 

[Flaming]

J109 is remarkably good in light air despite all the furniture, especially upwind even with just the #3 (with in-haulers) better obviously with #1 which sheets very nicely round the shrouds. I'd also second the X35/J111/40.7 suggestions.

The other dreaded factor is the rating system of course, but if we start that debate again here the thread will descend into the usual slanging match.

Not sure I'd agree with that. The last very light regatta I did with 109s involved was dominated by the 34.7s and the X35s, once you take the Corbys out....

1st 109 (J-Dream) was 5th from memory. They sailed well, as always, but with winds sub 8 knots they were just left standing.

A35 has also been mentioned above, but it's got way too much wetted surface area for the very light.

If I was looking for a light wind machine I'd buy an X35 or a 34.7, depending on budget.

 

[walterbshaffer]

J109 is remarkably good in light air despite all the furniture, especially upwind even with just the #3 (with in-haulers) better obviously with #1 which sheets very nicely round the shrouds. I'd also second the X35/J111/40.7 suggestions.

The other dreaded factor is the rating system of course, but if we start that debate again here the thread will descend into the usual slanging match.

Not sure I'd agree with that. The last very light regatta I did with 109s involved was dominated by the 34.7s and the X35s, once you take the Corbys out....

1st 109 (J-Dream) was 5th from memory. They sailed well, as always, but with winds sub 8 knots they were just left standing.

A35 has also been mentioned above, but it's got way too much wetted surface area for the very light.

If I was looking for a light wind machine I'd buy an X35 or a 34.7, depending on budget.

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[Jambalaya]

Not sure I'd agree with that. The last very light regatta I did with 109s involved was dominated by the 34.7s and the X35s, once you take the Corbys out....

1st 109 (J-Dream) was 5th from memory. They sailed well, as always, but with winds sub 8 knots they were just left standing.

A35 has also been mentioned above, but it's got way too much wetted surface area for the very light.

If I was looking for a light wind machine I'd buy an X35 or a 34.7, depending on budget.

Were J-D sailing IRC with just their #3 ? I am not sure they have in-haulers ? I was amazed at how fast the 109 was with the #3 in light air, that big main really helps. Mind you after the 105 anything feels quick in light air. 34.7's is good too I agree as walterb is proud to say.

 

[piggybui]

I have no evidence to back this up with (though I'm sure some results sheets somewhere will) but the x35 does well in light airs and from what I've seen of them they do look fast in the light stuff.

Conversely however they do get six shades of crap beaten out of them in the heavy.

 

[Jambalaya]

/monthly_11_2011/post-9720-091103700%201320418103_thumb.jpg /monthly_11_2011/post-9720-000413100%201320418121_thumb.jpg /monthly_11_2011/post-9720-066539400%201320418134_thumb.jpg

Calibrate the log ? Turn the engine off ?

 

[echo]

I have a 36.7 S/D and we do very well light air, as much as I hate it. (the wind not the boat)

We raced against a J-109 and beat it most times in light air, once it got up over 10-12 he took off.

I beat J120 and J130 in light air often.

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[Flaming]

Not sure I'd agree with that. The last very light regatta I did with 109s involved was dominated by the 34.7s and the X35s, once you take the Corbys out....

1st 109 (J-Dream) was 5th from memory. They sailed well, as always, but with winds sub 8 knots they were just left standing.

A35 has also been mentioned above, but it's got way too much wetted surface area for the very light.

If I was looking for a light wind machine I'd buy an X35 or a 34.7, depending on budget.

Were J-D sailing IRC with just their #3 ? I am not sure they have in-haulers ? I was amazed at how fast the 109 was with the #3 in light air, that big main really helps. Mind you after the 105 anything feels quick in light air. 34.7's is good too I agree as walterb is proud to say.

They were, but they still beat all the 109s with big headsails... Normally on the water as well.