RAINMAKER DISMASTED OFF HATTERAS IN GALE

[ProaSailor]

"Cat-like reflexes" is not a compliment, in my book. I have always enjoyed hobies but the only big cat that I have driven handled like a sponge, although it did move right along. Excellent for cocktail parties, spouses who don't like to heel and fast passages on flattish water but would not be my choice for an offshore passage. But maybe I shouldn't open this can of worms.

Yeah, that's far too broad a statement, based on only one big cat experience. They aren't all alike.

Some of them seem to do just fine in heavy weather:

~7,500 miles minimum distance in 64 days is 116 miles per day (~5 knot average), though actual track was certainly longer, resulting in higher averages. The Leopard 39 is extremely heavy (31 tons!) and has some of the same design issues as the GB55 (fairly low bridge deck clearance, open transoms). The difference appears to be seamanship...

 

[DDW]

Having taken a walk around Rainmaker in Wanachee, in her defense I will say that at rest there is quite a bit of bridge deck clearance - more than the typical charter cats certainly. I think in the picture heel, combined with stern waves and perhaps an incident wind wave make it look like less than it actually is.

And (as it was headed for the islands) it no doubt had a dinghy on the davits protecting the cockpit :blink: .

 

[ProaSailor]

Having taken a walk around Rainmaker in Wanachee, in her defense I will say that at rest there is quite a bit of bridge deck clearance - more than the typical charter cats certainly. I think in the picture heel, combined with stern waves and perhaps an incident wind wave make it look like less than it actually is.

And (as it was headed for the islands) it no doubt had a dinghy on the davits protecting the cockpit :blink: .

You're right! More than it looks, according to the specs:

Bridge Deck Clearance: .855 meter, 2.8 feet

And only ~17 tons max. load displacement. Much lighter and sixteen feet longer than the Leopard 39 (though ~five times the cost).

 

[Bryanjb]

What about going back the other way? Upwind or even close reaching?

"Cat-like reflexes" is not a compliment, in my book. I have always enjoyed hobies but the only big cat that I have driven handled like a sponge, although it did move right along. Excellent for cocktail parties, spouses who don't like to heel and fast passages on flattish water but would not be my choice for an offshore passage. But maybe I shouldn't open this can of worms.

Yeah, that's far too broad a statement, based on only one big cat experience. They aren't all alike.

Some of them seem to do just fine in heavy weather:

 

[Bryanjb]

31 tons? Does it have two lead keels?

Published on Nov 8, 2013

Cape Town to Brisbane through the Southern Ocean winter on a Leopard39,
64 days non-stop, 65kts+ winds.
Biggest surf: 34kts
~7,500 miles minimum distance in 64 days is 116 miles per day (~5 knot average), though actual track was certainly longer, resulting in higher averages. The Leopard 39 is extremely heavy (31 tons!) and has some of the same design issues as the GB55 (fairly low bridge deck clearance, open transoms). The difference appears to be seamanship...

 

[Airwick]

Having taken a walk around Rainmaker in Wanachee, in her defense I will say that at rest there is quite a bit of bridge deck clearance - more than the typical charter cats certainly. I think in the picture heel, combined with stern waves and perhaps an incident wind wave make it look like less than it actually is.

And (as it was headed for the islands) it no doubt had a dinghy on the davits protecting the cockpit :blink: .

You're right! More than it looks, according to the specs:

>Bridge Deck Clearance: .855 meter, 2.8 feet

And only ~17 tons max. load displacement. Much lighter and sixteen feet longer than the Leopard 39 (though ~five times the cost).

Also don't forget to take into account the fact that there is quite a bit of hull extending aft from the aft end of the cockpit, which makes a big difference (and at the other end the bridgedeck starts way back from the bows as well... I think there are many, many, much less seaworthy cruising cats out there doing just fine in nasty weather, also, I'm pretty sure PJ/GB (not to mention Nigel Irens, and M&M before that) know a thing or 2 about catamaran design and seaworthiness, just saying...

Going back to the start of the discussion, I have a hard time figuring it what would cause them to try to get onto a freighter in the first place. Unless the boat was about to sink or on fire, I would feel much safer drifting/motoring on a dismasted cat than trying to transfer to freighter in any kind of seaway! There is some serious potential for getting hurt during the transfer. Also I do believe the 55 has retractable props so I don't buy the "fouled prop" theory (related to cutting the rig), unless someone started the engine without checking for dangling bits overboard after cutting the rig, or started it wight the rig over the side, which would be a serious seamanship issue (but again, I wasn't there and shit happens)

Maybe we should just wait for the facts before passing judgment though...

 

[NoStrings]

"Cat-like reflexes" is not a compliment, in my book. I have always enjoyed hobies but the only big cat that I have driven handled like a sponge, although it did move right along. Excellent for cocktail parties, spouses who don't like to heel and fast passages on flattish water but would not be my choice for an offshore passage. But maybe I shouldn't open this can of worms.

Yeah, that's far too broad a statement, based on only one big cat experience. They aren't all alike.

Some of them seem to do just fine in heavy weather:

You kind of notice that they have about 18" of jib unrolled, the majority of their propulsion is from windage in the rig...and they're towing warps or a drogue way behind the boat. To me it looks like they read Heavy Wx Sailing and prepared fully for 60 kts.

 

[Guvacine]

Since we are on favorite videos of cat ocean crossings, feast your eyes on the Atlantic crossing of the Pilgrim. Highly relevant here because it is the antithesis of the GB trend. Half the size of a GB, no carbon in sight, no fully battened sails, and they still hit 15 knots. Oh, and the captain made the boat himself.

 

[ProaSailor]

31 tons? Does it have two lead keels?

Sorry, my mistake. There are six different values for displacement given on the Leopard 39 specs page:

http://www.leopardcatamarans.com/catamarans/leopard-39/technical-specs

On closer inspection, there are also six different boat lengths! Very confusing page.

L.W.L. : 38 ft. 1 in., Displacement : 20591 lbs.

L.W.L. : 39 ft. 4 in., Displacement : 25194 lbs.
L.W.L. : 41 ft. 8 in., Displacement : 27880 lbs.
L.W.L. : 45 ft. 5 in., Displacement : 37480 lbs.
L.W.L. : 49 ft. 1 in., Displacement : 40785 lbs.
L.W.L. : 54 ft. 2 in., Displacement : 61730 lbs.

 

[jhiller]

Since we are on favorite videos of cat ocean crossings, feast your eyes on the Atlantic crossing of the Pilgrim. Highly relevant here because it is the antithesis of the GB trend. Half the size of a GB, no carbon in sight, no fully battened sails, and they still hit 15 knots. Oh, and the captain made the boat himself.

Damn that looks like fun. None the less I am certain that whilst many of us would be very happy with that the owner of Rainmaker would not...so it goes

 

[knuckles]

Let's see ...

• Rich guy makes questionable investment in something he doesn't understand
• Obtains insurance policies at unrealistic premiums due to large portfolio coverage and special relationships
• Drags family members into situation without regard for possible effects on their well being
• Compounds risks through further uninformed, questionable decisions and meets calamity while claiming what transpired was impossible
• Plea distributed to masses by investment agents asking for prayers and encouraging emotional involvement in rich guy's personal tragedy to deflect inquiry into agent's role
• Bailed out by government agencies and taxpayers money with no consideration on behalf of either party for reimbursement for costs
• Media kowtows to rich guy because of advertising tie-ins, emphasizes the human element while ignoring the blatant stupidity and failing to follow the money
• Bloggers fan flames, but no one notices because the 10 minutes of notoriety afforded the incident have passed

Meanwhile, single unemployed mother enrolled in university leaves child alone in locked car for five minutes while buying milk at a corner store. Receives 5 year sentence for reckless child endangerment.

Nothing new to see here, move along.

I'd give you the medal for winning the internet today. Spot on.

 

[DryArmour]

Okay...so going WAYYY back to the weekend:

1. Has the boat been located?
2. Is it under tow or already back at the base of GUNBOAT operations?
3. Are there any rogue salvage companies taking a shot at the boat?
4. What comes next if the answer is no to all of the above?

 

[Wess]

Actually more like 5 miles. I am on the north end of the island.

I am making a lot of guesses from one photo, but that boat looks like it would need scuba gear to steer offshore.

I sailed one of these boats and she looks to have a ton more clearnace:

Hey - just realized that photo is about 2 miles from my house!

You live at Dirty Dave's?

Come on Kent. Don't join the flock of idiots posting crap here.

To the bolded part... yes you are, and no it doesn't.

The photo is of a Privilege 39. I have sailed a Privilege 39. While I was more a Chris White fan (till the most recent rig designs) than Gunboat (its a style thing and bang for buck not design issues) I would take the Gunboat in question places I would not take the 39 nice as it was. But that is just me. The peanut gallery will no doubt disagree based on extensive experience on their large offshore catamarans.

Back to your regular program.

Do carry on...

Burn them all. They are witches! Burn them!!

 

[Boo-Yah]

Having taken a walk around Rainmaker in Wanachee, in her defense I will say that at rest there is quite a bit of bridge deck clearance - more than the typical charter cats certainly. I think in the picture heel, combined with stern waves and perhaps an incident wind wave make it look like less than it actually is.

And (as it was headed for the islands) it no doubt had a dinghy on the davits protecting the cockpit :blink: .

You're right! More than it looks, according to the specs:


>Bridge Deck Clearance: .855 meter, 2.

8 feet

And only ~17 tons max. load displacement. Much lighter and sixteen feet longer than the Leopard 39 (though ~five times the cost).



Also don't forget to take into account the fact that there is quite a bit of hull extending aft from the aft end of the cockpit, which makes a big difference (and at the other end the bridgedeck starts way back from the bows as well... I think there are many, many, much less seaworthy cruising cats out there doing just fine in nasty weather, also, I'm pretty sure PJ/GB (not to mention Nigel Irens, and M&M before that) know a thing or 2 about catamaran design and seaworthiness, just saying...

Going back to the start of the discussion, I have a hard time figuring it what would cause them to try to get onto a freighter in the first place. Unless the boat was about to sink or on fire, I would feel much safer drifting/motoring on a dismasted cat than trying to transfer to freighter in any kind of seaway! There is some serious potential for getting hurt during the transfer. Also I do believe the 55 has retractable props so I don't buy the "fouled prop" theory (related to cutting the rig), unless someone started the engine without checking for dangling bits overboard after cutting the rig, or started it wight the rig over the side, which would be a serious seamanship issue (but again, I wasn't there and shit happens)

Maybe we should just wait for the facts before passing judgment though...

[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]"Going back to the start of the discussion, I have a hard time figuring it what would cause them to try to get onto a freighter in the first place."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]I will guess for you. Owner and Kid on the boat. All of a sudden nothing feels or looks like the brochure and promotional smooth as glass sailing videos. The boat is basically out of control bobbing and lurching in every imaginable direction. MAybe like being inside of a washing machine without the water to cushion the blows from each new wave and fall across the cabin space. To many that would look and feel like godzilla had them. Oh it is about to get dark. Many would have the instinct to get off on anything that approaches. The rats and sinking ship come to mind. If I was on that new wide carbon and composite toy. I would wonder what is going to crack, break off or fail. Who knows maybe Mom ordered them off on the Sat Phone when the kid called crying for mommy? Why do some stay to fight the fire inside their home and other up and run out with nothing or any effort to mitigate the situation until stronger help arrives? I want to see the kids cell phone videos. If he was not taking them. There is another hint for you. [/SIZE]

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Like I said - guessing from one photo.

The only other multi I have experience with is a Condor 40. THOSE are FUN

Actually more like 5 miles. I am on the north end of the island.

I am making a lot of guesses from one photo, but that boat looks like it would need scuba gear to steer offshore.

I sailed one of these boats and she looks to have a ton more clearnace:

Hey - just realized that photo is about 2 miles from my house!

You live at Dirty Dave's?

Come on Kent. Don't join the flock of idiots posting crap here.

To the bolded part... yes you are, and no it doesn't.

The photo is of a Privilege 39. I have sailed a Privilege 39. While I was more a Chris White fan (till the most recent rig designs) than Gunboat (its a style thing and bang for buck not design issues) I would take the Gunboat in question places I would not take the 39 nice as it was. But that is just me. The peanut gallery will no doubt disagree based on extensive experience on their large offshore catamarans.

Back to your regular program.

Do carry on...

Burn them all. They are witches! Burn them!!

 

[ProaSailor]

<snip>

Going back to the start of the discussion, I have a hard time figuring it what would cause them to try to get onto a freighter in the first place. Unless the boat was about to sink or on fire, I would feel much safer drifting/motoring on a dismasted cat than trying to transfer to freighter in any kind of seaway! There is some serious potential for getting hurt during the transfer. Also I do believe the 55 has retractable props so I don't buy the "fouled prop" theory (related to cutting the rig), unless someone started the engine without checking for dangling bits overboard after cutting the rig, or started it wight the rig over the side, which would be a serious seamanship issue (but again, I wasn't there and shit happens)

Maybe we should just wait for the facts before passing judgment though...

I will guess for you. Owner and Kid on the boat. All of a sudden nothing feels or looks like the brochure and promotional smooth as glass sailing videos. The boat is basically out of control bobbing and lurching in every imaginable direction. MAybe like being inside of a washing machine without the water to cushion the blows from each new wave and fall across the cabin space. To many that would look and feel like godzilla had them. Oh it is about to get dark. Many would have the instinct to get off on anything that approaches. The rats and sinking ship come to mind. If I was on that new wide carbon and composite toy. I would wonder what is going to crack, break off or fail. Who knows maybe Mom ordered them off on the Sat Phone when the kid called crying for mommy? Why do some stay to fight the fire inside their home and other up and run out with nothing or any effort to mitigate the situation until stronger help arrives? I want to see the kids cell phone videos. If he was not taking them. There is another hint for you.

Never underestimate the effects of being horribly seasick... all the more so when dealing with the mast coming down.

 

[Raked Aft\\]

^ i'm guessing there were a number of souls on board reeling from sea sickness as well.

in bad cases can certainly cause delusional thoughts of imminent peril.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

It can be a loss of control issue. We studied it at flight school in survival class. One second you are King of the World in your amazing fast carbon fiber airplane boat and the next second your windshield is covered with oil mast falls off and you are NOT the King of Anything anymore. it can be quite the psychological blow to someone used to being in charge of any situation.

 

[ProaSailor]

Come on Kent. Don't join the flock of idiots posting crap here.

To the bolded part... yes you are, and no it doesn't.

The photo is of a Privilege 39. I have sailed a Privilege 39. While I was more a Chris White fan (till the most recent rig designs) than Gunboat (its a style thing and bang for buck not design issues) I would take the Gunboat in question places I would not take the 39 nice as it was. But that is just me. The peanut gallery will no doubt disagree based on extensive experience on their large offshore catamarans.

Back to your regular program.

Do carry on...

Burn them all. They are witches! Burn them!!

"flock of idiots posting crap", "peanut gallery"... Self-righteous indignation in SA forums is so fucking pretentious, eh?

 

[Wess]

Yea, to each their own but yes, "pretentious" seems to fit as well.

Sorry to interrupt the burning at the stake.

Do carry on.

Agreed! Insufficient bridge deck clearance. All the more reason to avoid steep, short wavelength conditions that are common in the Gulf Stream when the wind is blowing 20 knots or more. The low, open transoms would be easily pooped by following seas. There is no magic formula for getting around these basic design criteria for blue water multihulls.

Let's see ...

• Rich guy makes questionable investment in something he doesn't understand
• Obtains insurance policies at unrealistic premiums due to large portfolio coverage and special relationships
• Drags family members into situation without regard for possible effects on their well being
• Compounds risks through further uninformed, questionable decisions and meets calamity while claiming what transpired was impossible
• Plea distributed to masses by investment agents asking for prayers and encouraging emotional involvement in rich guy's personal tragedy to deflect inquiry into agent's role
• Bailed out by government agencies and taxpayers money with no consideration on behalf of either party for reimbursement for costs
• Media kowtows to rich guy because of advertising tie-ins, emphasizes the human element while ignoring the blatant stupidity and failing to follow the money
• Bloggers fan flames, but no one notices because the 10 minutes of notoriety afforded the incident have passed

Meanwhile, single unemployed mother enrolled in university leaves child alone in locked car for five minutes while buying milk at a corner store. Receives 5 year sentence for reckless child endangerment.

Nothing new to see here, move along.

Heh, heh. Excellent observations. In addition, more often than not, failures are due to mis-management rather than poor engineering.